How do you feel about Roy jones?

Tommy's prime division was ww

He was a shot fighter when he fought Hill. Just imagine Calzaghe losing to Duran at smw or Jones to shot Trinidad at lhw. It's ludicrous. No decent prime lhw loses to that version of Hearns, proving that Hill was less than decent

Tiozzi
Notable wins: 0
-McCallum was 40 years old and at the end of his career
-DM was shot and coming out of retirement
Notable losses:
Hill I, Hill II
The second loss was disastrous. He got koed in one round by a pillow fisted Hill

Del Valle
Notable wins:0
Notable losses:
Jones, Hill

De valle's claim to fame is that he picked up a vacant belt and lost it immediately

Maske
Notable wins: 0
Debatable wins: Rochigiani I, Rochigiani II

The first fight was close, but Rochigiani should of got the nod. If not for Maske's constant holding Maske would of got kod
Their second fight was a down right robbery. Rochigiani won that by a 9-3 type decision

Notable losses:
Hill

Tiozzi, De Valle and Maske were nothing special

 

And what is your opinion based on?

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Hill obviously thought it was a big issue which is why he was seriously thinking of cancelling the fight, but unfortunatly for him he had already invested a lot of time and energy preparing for the fight. Jones wanted the weigh in moved to stop Hill from rehydrating. It really is that simple

He lost by more than decision, he lost by near shot out.

The simple fact is that Hill was a amateurish fighter. He literally fought with one arm. He used a jab and left hook. you could basically ignore his right arm. You can get away with that stylistic flaw against the Mike Peaks of he world but better opponents will take advantage of that, which is why he lost to Hearns and it should be pointed out that the Hearns fight was considered to be a step up in class for Hill, who already had around 10 title defenses at that point. So that should tell you right there how padded his record was at that point. The fact that he lost decisively to shot Hearns and Tavouris Cloud level D.M should tell you the level Hill was on.

Hill was nowhere near world class level, so there's no way any win over him can be classed as great

Where he only beat c level fighters

 

Going into the Jones fight Griffin had two controversial wins over Toney. It should be pointed out that wasn't a peak Toney either rather it was a Toney whose career had completely flatlined, post Jones. He wouldn't have a return to form until he hooked up with Roach and moved to CW. Glen Johnson was a better fighter than Toney at lhw

Post Futch

After the Jones win Griffin would fall out with Futch over money and without Futch in his corner Griffins career would basically flatline

Jones II:
Koed in one round.
Dm:
Stopped in 4 rounds
Tarver:
One sided beat down
Gonzalez
Points loss to a fringe contender
Hoye:
Points loss to a fringe contender
Harding:
Points loss to a contender level fighter
Johnson:
Outworked and stopped in 10 rounds. This is the same Johnson who you claim is a journeyman
Sheminov
Points loss to a ordinary fighter

Post Futch Griffin was a journeyman. He would fight something like 10 years after Futch and achieve nothing. And this is a fighter you class as more than decent?

I never said he was great. I said he was better than all of Jones's opponents, post Toney, until Jones faced Tarver.

No, it wasn't me

Based on what?

He was with Roach from Eubank I until the end of his career. He was trained by the Petronellis (and others) before that

The exact opposite happened.
When he was at mw and trained by the Petronellis he was a boxer, but when he moved up to smw he became a bover/brawler. He outboxed Eubank in their first fight to win a 7-5 type decision, but in their rematch he would outbrawl Eubank to win by a near shut out. The judging for that fight was a joke

He did not rely on his toughness either, thats something that could be said about Margarito. Collins actually had a defense

The Rochigiani win is his best win. One of Eubanks best performances along with the Wharton fight

How was Eubank not the same after Watson? Eubank got lazy when he moved up to smw, like Toney did. It was one of the reasons he struggled so much with Watson only months after beating him the first time. (I saw no controversy with the decision for their first fight.) He basically crash trained after that, but when the bbbc started to monitor him he looked much better like in the Wharton fight

 

???????


Notable wins:
Collins: Eubank I, Eubank II, Pyatt
Hill: Maske. Tiozzi I, Tiozzi II

Comparing wins

Eubank I > Maske
Eubank actually beat Roch, which is more that Maske can say.
Eubank II > Tiozzi
Pyatt=Tiozzi

Best wins: Collins

Comparing consistency:

McCallum, Kalambay and Johnson were all world class-elite level fighters when Collin faced them. Losing close decisions to world class operaters does not hurt you

Hill on the other hand had bad losses to the following fighters:

D.M:
He beat Hill by near shut out and D.M was a limited fighter
Hearns:
Was near shot by the time he faced Hill. Losing decisively to that version of Hearns is disastrous
Jones;
Stopped in four rounds by a former mw. A terrible loss
Mormeck:
Technically a tko loss

Consistency : Collins

The facts speak for themselves
.
Collins was the better fighter as shown by competition beaten and overall consistency

 

You obviously have not watched Tarver-Johnson

Atlas scored it 10-2 to Tarver
Tessitore scored it 11-1 to Tarver
Johnson's own team told Reggie he desperately needed a knockout to win the fight
The crowd openly booed when the judges card favouing Reggie was read

Tarver won that fight decisively. Reggie at lhw beat no one worth mentioning and decisively lost when fighting world class lhw opposition

Reggie Johnson(lhw)
Notable wins:0
Notable losses:
Jones
Tarver

smw collins >>>>>>>>> lhw R.Johnson

My point still stands. He would not beat an opponent better than Collins until he faced Tarver in 03

Point 1: You don't know what the terms of the offer was in 02
Point 2: On what basis are you overlooking all of the obstacles Jones used to stop the fight from 96-01?

My point was about actual opponents not "possible opponents". You can only judge a fighter on what he actually did

We don't know Jones wanted Holyfield. We know he said it, but saying something and actually going through with it are two very different things. The fact that he would not move up to hw until 03 tells me how serious he was

On a related note Holyfield was a King fighter back in 97. That's the same King Jones said he could not do business with in 95, but I'm sure you have a unfounded opinion to explain that, right?

 

It turns out that Kery Davis was lying. Jones confirms that here:

(link dead)















Greg Fitz even admits here that there were talks between the camps, again showing that Davis and Jacobs are full of rubbish

There's No Stopping Roy Jones

OTHER WORLDLY

 

Ruiz was a journeyman. but he had to be considered a tougher fight because of his size advantage, but Collins was still the better fighter as his resume shows.

Your blatantly trying to distort the facts.

The window of opportunity for a Jones-Collins fight was 95-96, during which time Jones only fought journeyman. The fact that he moved up after that is pretty much irrelevant.

It is much more accurate to say that he dismissed Collins to pursue fights with Thornton, Lucas and Byrant Brannon

point 1:
Jones took the Toney fight for TWO reasons

1: It was a opportunity of a lifetime
-Jones, who was not a draw, was going to take part in a ppv fight against a superstar opponent.
-The winner of that fight was going to get a HBO contract worth $30m
No sane fighter turns down a chance to fight for a HBO contract

2: Toney was a fighter on the slide, like Tyson was post Rooney.
He wasn't training properly and his weight was out of control. If you watch his fights closely you will see he only fought for parts of a round. It's the reason Jones during the post fight interview would say that he knew it would be hard for Toney to get down from 200 lbs. A weight he had no business being at between fights.

Point 2:
This is Jones resume from mw - smw

MW
Notable wins: 0
(The Hopkins win did not mean anything back then he was still struggling with the likes of Baptist and Mercado)
Notable misses: McClellan, Collins, Jackson, Kalambay, JD.Jackson, R.Johnson

SMW
Notable wins: Toney
Notable misses: Benn, Liles, Nunn, Collins, Rochigianni, Littles

Does this look to you like a fighter interested in fighting the best? You will notice he missed every puncher and tall rangy southy

Point 1: Team Jones has given a total of 5 conflicting accounts, which proves they are liars
And on what basis are you ignoring Warreens account?

Point 2:
There were a lot of fighs which Jones said he was interested in, and later killed. So the fact that he said he was interested in the Benn fight does not mean much

Only the Ruiz and Tarver fights are worth mentioning from that list.

He killed the DM fight by demanding 10m

Holyfield had no reason to be interested in fighting Jones.
-He wouldn't of got much credit
-He wasnt a draw
-He was difficult to deal with

If Jones was really serious about fighting Holyfield then he would of targeted one of the other belt holders. Holyfield would of had no choice but to pay attention to him then, but that is something which he never did. Tellimg me just how serious he was about that fight

Hopkins
-It was Jones who killed the fight in 01. He could also be blamed for killing the fight back in 96

 

And Collins was better than the guys he spent the next 2 years defending his smw belt against, so your point is?

Is that why he gave 4 different reasons for why the fight could not happen?

1: Collins was considered the second best fighter in the division. That fact should be enough to get a fight
2: None of Jones opponents at smw had belts, so why is Collins belt a issue?
3: Jones wanted to fight the WBO mw champion, Lonnie Bradley

And how do you know that? Who outside of Team Jones states that? During Jones's time at smw no relevant opponent got a shot. Fighters like Littles, Rochigianni, Nunn, Hopkins and Collins who were not tied with King had no more luck then Benn did. A fact you insist on overlooking.

He would of gotten a lot of money if he fought Collins in Ireland. Collins was a massive draw over there fighting in front of crowds as high as 10k, while Jones was lucky if even 3k turned up for his fights. On top of that SKY TV would of picked up the UK rights for such a fight. He would of made more against Collins than any of the opponents he faced at smw, post Toney

None of Jones's smw opponents had belts, so it's a mute point to keep going on about Collins WBO belt

This is just your opinion

Did Lonnie Bradley had a recognised belt?

-Did Sosa have a recognised belt when Jones fought him in a non title bout at 175?
-Did Harmon or Telesco have recognised belts?

Look at the way you are playing fast and loose with the facts.

 

The most likely reason for why Jones refused to fight Collins would of been money. I will use 2 examples to highlight my point

Jones-Brannon
Licensing fee:3m

point 1: Jones takes 500k of the fee to go towards promoting the fight. How much he spends and how much he simply pockets is another debate

point 2: Jones divides the remaining 2.5m 90-10 in his favour

point 3: Jones keeps all of the revenue from the gate reciepts etc to himself

Jones-Collins
Licensing fee: Around 4m
SKY would of picked up the UK rights for the fight

Problem 1:
Warreen would of insisted in co-promoting the fight so Jones has to split the 500k fee with wareen

Problem 2:
Collins is going to want around 33% of the purse and Jones never gave that amount to anyone. He wanted at least 80% of any purse

Problem 3:He is going to have to share the revenue from the gate recipts etc with Collins and Warreen

Jones's ego/greed stopped that fight from happening. I bet if Collins was prepared to allow himself to get ripped off then he most likely would of got a shot.

 

A ludicrous statement

You asked what fighters did Jones refuse to fight and I said Guthrie.
You asked what were the circumstances and I told you Jones did not want Guthrie to make any money

The fact that Guthrie turned out to be nothing special is neither here nor there. I don't want him to make any money? what kind of reason is that to refuse to unify the lhw belts?

Tarver should not have been forced into that eliminator in the first place. Especially when Jones did not push guys like Kelly, Brannon and Thornton into eliminator bouts

He fought Tarver(03) because he was going to get stripped for refusing to fight his mandatory challenger, Tua. A fact I notice you always overlook. Tarver asked for a rematch and jones refused which is why Tarver took his case to the WBC who ordered Jones to fight Tarver again.

Ludicrous

He could of fought Collins from 93-96. Thats a 4 year window
He could of fought Nunn 95-00. That's a 5 year window and on top of that Nunn was his mando at lhw on 2 seperate occasions and still could not get a shot.

Hill was early 98 and Tarver was late 03. He had plenty of time to fight ALL of those guys, but he wasn't interested

The vast majority of his opponents, post Toney, were bums, which is why Seth Abraham admits that it was a misake to give him that contract in the first place:

SecondsOut Boxing News - Thomas Hauser - HBO Boxing The Challenge

 

True. Holyfield had no interest in fighting lhw's.

No.
He was already the no 1 mandatory before Jones and Griffin had their rematch.

Saying you are going to do something and actually going through with it are not one and the same thing. The fact that your boy would not move up until 2003 should tell you how serious he was about it during 97.

And that is just your opinion, which isnt even based on what actually happened either.

You know the Douglas fight was not even discussed until 4 months after he had vacated the belt?

And for the record it's obviously 2 and it's pretty easy to prove.

First off all I would like to point out that Jones promoted his own fights. The $3m HBO licensing fee went to the promoter of Jones's fights and seeing as how he always promoted his own fights, post Toney, then he was free to divide that money anyway he saw fit

Brannon - 250K
Thornton - 250k
Frazier - 350k

He basically paid his opponents around 10% of the licensing fee and kept the rest for himself















Nunn vs Jones

Offer 1:
According to a one source Jones only offered Nunn 150K for their fight. Either way the offer was rejected which led to the fight going to purse bids

Offer 2:
Jones and the Goossen's(Nunn's promoters), would all bid for the fight, which the Goosen's won with a purse bid of $2.4m

Jones had now lost the right to promote the fight, which meant that the revenue including the licensing fee went to the Goossen's. Jones was now "only" going to get 1.8m due to the purse money having to be divided 75-25% to the champion.Jones was unhappy with the situation so he tried to buy back the fight from the Goossens

Offer 3:

Jones' decision due today on Nunn fight


Jones obviously wanted a larger slice of the purse money (which would of been at Nunn's expense), which is why he made a third attempt get the fight back. The Goossens were right to refuse to sell the fight seeing as how Jones only paid his opponents a fraction of what they should of got. Failing to get the fight back Jones would then vacate the belt. Publicy stating that Nunn did not deserve a purse

The Cyber Boxing Zone Newswire

It was a move motivated by pure spite. By refusing to fight Nunn he killed Nunn's chance of fighting on HBO and getting a decent purse. Jones could do things like this because he had a HBO contract, which paid him millions of pounds no matter who he fought

He tried three times to get that fight. He was unhappy with the purse split, which is no real surprise seeing at how little he paid his opponents. It was only when he could not get control of the fight that he then vacated the belt, which in turn stopped Nunn from getting his $600k. His own legal adviser would state that Jones did not even want to give up the belt.At no point did he ever say I chose to fight Buster instead of Nunn. Something he could never of said seeing as how he would not even enter into negotiations for that fight until around 4 months later.

My opinion is based on what actually happened, while yours is based on what exactly?

 

Jump forward to early 1998 and Nunn would beat Guthrie to become the wbc no 1 contender again. Jones would ignore him. Then something strange would happen, late 98. Nunn was told he had to fight Frazier. Nunn would refuse so Frazier was bumped up to the no 1 wbc spot.

(link dead)

It was a mistake for Nunn to refuse to fight Frazier because after facing Frazier Jones did not have to fight another mando for 12 months. When that time limit expired Nunn was pushed into a elimination bout with Woods. (Tarver was also pushed into a elimination bout with Harding at the same time).

While Nunn was getting ready to fight Woods Jones would tell the press that he was planning to move up to hw

Q-C's Nunn trains for Oct. 2 fight

Nunn must of realised at this point that he was never going to get a fight with Jones, which made a fight with Woods redundant. Nunn would pull out of the Woods fight and Jones was finally free of Nunn.

 

Neither here nor there. He didn't want Guthrie to make any money, which really tells us the kind of person Jones was. This is the same Jones who wanted Calzaghe to give him 50% of all the revenue, something he would of never dreamed of giving any of his opponents during his hey day.

I said guys with a similiar style to Liles, who was a tall rangy southpaw. Something which Lou De Valle and Reggie Johnson were not.


Jones vs the Tall rangy Southpaws

95
Refuses to fight Nunn.
96
Under pressure from HBO Jones enters into talks with Liles. Liles rejects Jones's offer, which was most likely a lowball offer. Liles would call out Jones for the next 3 years and get ignored
97
Skips over Guthrie who was his wbc mando to fight Griffin
Later that same year he refuses to fight Nunn and Guthrie publicy stating that they did not deserve a purse

99
Cancels the Rochigianni fight

00
Has Nunn and Tarver pushed into elimination bouts

Fights Harding and greatly struggles

02
Prices himself out of the Jirov fight
Gets stripped of his IBF belt for refusing to fight Tarver after Woods.
(It should be pointed out that Jones original plan was to fight Hopkins after Woods, not Ruiz.He had even rehired Murad to make the Hopkins fight before he had even fought Woods, but he would change his mind when the ibf got on his case)

03
Ignores Byrd
Prices himself out of a fight with Saunders
Calls Griffin on the phone and promises him a fight if he beats Tarver
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1cErn_ef1Y
Go to 05:00 and 24:10

With the WBA on his case he decides to move down to fight Tarver, who was not allowed to have a rematch clause in his contract while Jones had one

Faces Tarver late 03 and barely wins

04
Tarver would demand a rematch, but Jones would refuse. So Tarver would take his case to the wbc who would order Jones to fight Tarver again. HBO would side with Tarver telling Jones that he could only get a ppv date if he facs Tarver. Jones gets koed

With a ko loss on his record HBO can now legally cancel his contract

05
Tarver III
After Tarver II, Jones would say on more than one occasion that he did not want to fight Tarver again, but with HBO now in position to cancel his contract he really had no choice but to take high risk fights.

Jones would refuse to promote the fight and during the fight itself he basically quit

Tarver hands Jones third straight loss

HBO would then cancel his HBO contract and fire him from his boxing analyst job. Seth Abraham would say that they should never have given him that contract in the first place, while Ross Greenburg would describe Jones as difficult and selfish.

He missed: Nunn, Liles, Guthrie, Rochigianni, Jirov, Byrd, Saunders

-Pushed Tarver into a elimination bout
-Refused to give Tarver a rematch, until he was ordered to by the WBC
-He struggled wih every decent tall rangy southpaw he faced. His official record against them is 1-2. if Tarver wasnt such a idiot then Jones would of lost all of those fights

 

Jones - Graciano

Point 1:
Reggie Johnson skipped the press conference with Jones and that fight still went on:

Johnson Misses News Conference

Point 2:
Jones regularly skipped press conferences or would be extremely late and would continue to do so as late as Tarver III

At Getting Ink, Jones Is Merely A Flyweight

boxing-jones-fights-his-own-way-not-very-often

Jones irks Tarver, network with silence - boxing


The idea that Jones cancelled the Graciano fight because he missed a press conference is stupid











Point 3:
The fight was ordered by the WBC. The fact that Graciano missed a press conference is no grounds for cancelling the fight. The WBC thought so as well, which is why Murad was ordered to make a new deal.

WBC lawyer: Roy Jones Jr. has to fight Rocchigiani

Kerry Davis is a liar

Graciano had taken legal action against the wbc, which explains why they were hassling Jones about making the fight

The article also states that Graciano had been chasing the fight for 1.5 yrs

Graciano had been forced to take Murad to court to get the fight in the first place:

The Cyber Boxing Zone Newswire


Do you think he did all of that while turning down fights?

 

Not true.
His legal action against the WBC would start in 2000 and would not get resolved until late 03. He also took legal action against Murad as well for his role in the situation.

If I told you that Jones skipped the Tarver III press onference because he was using steroids would you believe it?

Graciano started pursuing legal action in 2000, after the wbc did a U-turn and told him that because he had not fought in 2 years, overlooking the fact that he had been trying to get a Jones fight during that time, so they were going to drop him from their rankings. In other words they were siding with Jones and Murad.


The most likely reason why Jones was reluctant to make the Roch was
money and ego

Under the wbc rules the interim champiom, Graciano, was entitled to 45% of the purse, which explains why Jones was so reluctant to make the fight. As a general rule he ONLY payed his opponents around 10-13%. Peter Kohl rejected Jones initial offer which is why the fight went to bids. Jones would win the bids with a bid of around 2.8m, with Graciano set to get around 1.4m. At the first excuse he got Jones killed the fight and refused to make another one. Jones would go on to fight Telesco and pay him around 450k, which was almost 1m less then he would of had to pay Graciano.

?????

point 1:
Telesco was a hard hitting club fighter, he was on the same level as Hall who Dibella had called garbage

AT HBO, DIBELLA TOSSING IN TOWEL

Point 2:
Jones did not care about the fights that HBO wanted which is why he had such a strained relationship with Dibella

point 3:
Source?