How do you rate Sonny liston?

With Bowe he probably eats jabs even more accurate and damaging than Golota's and gets brain damaged over the course of the fight.

 

It was a bold call, now that you bring it up. I would take issue with the Foreman and Tyson comparisons though. Foreman was plodding and slow and 1959 Liston was a better puncher, more active, and explosive than 1992 Foreman. Holyfield knew that if you move Tyson backwards, he is not as dangerous and was in fact downright ineffective. Personally, I think that Holyfield figured that out when they sparred as amateurs. Holyfield would not move Liston back. It's a different fight completely.

I also do believe that Holyfield would box Liston aggressively. I don't think he was comfortable any other way and would rely on his speed to do this. Benton and Duva encouraged this style and in his HW prime, that was who he was with. Even later, with few exceptions, he fought like the "Holy Warrior" he fashioned himself.

The comparison that do give me pause are Bowe I and Dokes... I have to soften my position because of your retort and my own reconsideration. Liston still stops Holyfield in my opinion, but not necessarily early.

 

Sonny Liston isn't stopping, KOing, or even decisioning Evander Holyfield. Holy was an entirely different class of heavyweight than most Liston ever faced except Ali who beat him easily. Unlike Floyd patterson and several others whom Liston defeated, Holyfield had a granite chin that was tested against a greater line of bigger stronger heavyweights, and was a fairly skilled fighter in exceptional physical condition. He survived the power of Mike Tyson ( 2x ), George Foreman, Lennox Lewis ( 2x), and Riddick Bowe ( 2x ). Half of those fights came when he was past his prime by the way. I also don't buy the notion that Liston would just use his jab to keep Holyfield off balance and outbox him all night. Holyfield found ways to beat more quality opponents than Liston ever did, and if we're talking about a peak Holyfield, not the one who lost to John Ruiz, then Evander wins everytime.

 

Well, I wouldn't call either fight a toe to toe war. I think Clay beat him rather handedly.

Well, he didn't. And keep in mind, this wasn't a fully developed Ali either.

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Which version? The one who fought John Ruiz or the one who took the title in 1990? If we're talking about the latter of the two, then none of Liston's victoms are walking away with a "W".

Few of the men who Bethea survived, with the possible exceptions of Nino Valdez and Cleveland Williams were terribly big punchers. Most of them were under 200 Lbs, and had very low KO percentages. Holyfield's chin and durability was far better tested, and more importantly, he had the arsenal to fight back and hurt liston-something that Bethea couldn't do. Although I respect Liston's ability to reak havock, comparing Evander Holyfield to Wayne Bethea is not a viable measure of what Liston would do to Holyfield.

 

Yes, but its not like Clay struggled with this version of Liston. It would be one thing if he dropped Clay, and extended him the distance to lose a close decision. Then we might be able to say that a peak Sonny may have dusted Clay, but the reality is that he was dominated. In addition, as I said before, this was not a peak Clay. Ali did not reach his prime until around 1967, when he was a bit more seasoned and had several defenses under his belt.

Is this what you consider to be the best example of Holyfield? He was fighting with a bum shoulder and after the fight was diagnosed with a heart condition, leading to him taking a break from the sport. Still, he went 12 rounds and even floored Moorer to lose a close decision, to a very formidable undefeated opponent at the time. Although this was not the best version of Evander, he still could have beaten a lot of fighters, even on that evening.

Its never a stretch to say that any fighter could have beaten any fighter on any given evening. In over 100 years of history in the sport, we have seen more than enough examples where heavily favoured fighters lost to underdogs. The key with making predictions about fantasy matchups however, is that we have to assess the probability of an outcome. Based on the accomplishments of Folley and Machen's career's when sized up to Holyfield's I'd have to make the odds heavily in favor of Holyfield.

Precisely why I used the words " with the possible of EXCEPTION of Nino Valdez and Cleveland Williams. " The rest of the men who Bethea survived were not destroyers by most peoples definition. Although, I have never seen many of those other guys fight, their size perameters combined with the number knockouts to wins, doesn't indicate that they were huge hitters. Now look at some of the people Holyfield withstood: Bowe, Foreman, Stewart, Dokes, Moorer, Tyson, Lewis. I'm sure you can agree that these men are a far cry from Folley, Carter, mildenberger and many of the other men who Bethea took the distance.

 

Liston has become a media jizz job, though he still stands as great. He just looked better than he was in the weakest era known to man (the Norris/mob controlled post Marciano-era).

He stands a good chance of beating everyone before him except Louis and Marciano, but both could go either way.

In his prime, he would have a good chance against Frazier, no chance against Ali, 50/50 against Foreman, little chance against Holmes, no chance against Lewis or either Klitch.

But he would probably beat Bruce Seldon.

 

Rocky is just too small for Liston..He gets absolutely wrecked.

 

Liston is a top 5 HW all time...H2H record however you want to put it. To favor Liston over anyone not named Ali wouldn’t be an insult to the other fighter. I personally would have liked to see how a Marciano or Frazier type would do against him...someone with a more durable chin then Patterson.

 

He comfortably makes my all time top ten.Marciano and Frazier are just outside it.

 

At his best he beats Marciano, Frazier, and Louis. He was a tough SOB.

 

Tyson can't back up Sonny Liston , Mike would be standing right in front of Liston, only question I have is how long does Tyson last.

 

I'd bet he beats Marciano and Frazier.Louis would be more problematical.imo

 

Ali is the only one I favor with confidence. Louis is 50/50 in a trilogy. I doubt either man goes 3-0. Dempsey could spring an upset. As could Frazier.