Right.....there is a second tier of fighters of that era that don't get the recognition they deserve. Amos Lincoln, Scarp Iron Johnson, type guys.
Yes like a lot of boxers Billy the barber Daniels had a day job throughout his career as a boxer. Paul pender was a fireman. I read Billy took a few years out to concentrate on his barber business before coming back in the 1970s.
I agree. I know this is an old thread, but there seems to be a lot of talk on other threads in this forum these days (October 2019) about how formidable Williams was. He definitely defeated Daniels, but it wasn't the performance of an all-time great or a guy who deserved to be champion except for Sonny Liston, etc., etc. He's powerful but slow enough to be defended against. He doesn't take that good a punch. He was a late 1950s and early '60s-era contender and that's about it. It wasn't the strongest era in the heavyweight division. I put him a notch below guys like Ron Lyle and Earnie Shavers, whom I also decline to rate as all-time greats.
No-one is putting him on that that's for sure. The bottom line is that if he did happen to get a fight against Patterson it's not beyond the realm of possibility he could have sprung the upset. Machen saw him as a bit of a handful - "In a way he's tougher to fight than Liston because he has the speed the other doesn't have. You can't walk around Cleveland like you can Liston." -Eddie Machen Again we definitely aren't putting Williams up as an ATG or even remotely close to it. He was a dangerous big punching contender who was a bit unlucky to run into Liston and not get a fight with Patterson. Rating Williams a little behind Shavers and Lyle would be fair for most. Shavers was a mixed bag but he had a couple of dominant ko's over rated contenders and he was perhaps a clean right hand away from beating Holmes. Lyle has wins over Bugner, Ellis, Bonavena, and Shavers himself. The thing to take into account in this whole show is that Patterson was the guy he had to go through. Patterson was a damn good fighter but not the most durable ever. How would you see Shavers and Lyle going against Floyd? I rate Floyd quite highly but i think they would be quit dangerous. Williams would have been too i think.
in giving Williams a chance with Patterson you are reaching for a 2+2=4 certainty that is not there. The only basis to invent this upset is that Williams resembles some of the Physical attributes of Sonny Liston. Charlie Powel has these attributes. it didn’t do charlie much good against Floyd. This is because guys who spring the upset usually have a decent world level win or two to back it up. Not Williams. Williams was not unlucky not to fight Patterson because the big cat was never in a position to challenge him. Floyd lost the title before anyone knew who Williams was. It was not until 1961-62 that Williams really had any currency as a contender and by then Floyd was out of the picture. Boilermaker recent lineal ranking system (a thoroughly researched ratings that ranks only on “man who beat the man” basis) shows that in reality Williams barely broke the top 30 ratings in his entire career! how durable was Williams? patterson was better than damn good. By beating Ingo, Jackson, moore, Chuvalo, machen, Bonavena he proved he was a better fighter than Williams.
Good grief, are you pushing this line again? Charlie Powell was nowhere close to being in Williams's class. His last fight before facing Patterson had been a one-sided defeat to Roger Rischer, who had in turn been flattened by Williams the previous year.
Such a shallow and biased spin. Ingo had what, one credible win prior to knocking Floyd out? He certainly didn't do much after either. Under your closed mindset Douglas would never have beaten Tyson not to mention countless other results. The bottom line is Williams is a very powerful puncher and a dangerous offensive fighter and Floyd was definitely able to be knocked out. This means Williams would have had some sort of chance of an upset and could not be totally counted out as you are wont to push. You really should get your facts in line when it comes to basic stuff like timelines. Floyd was out of the picture in 61-62? A blatant fabrication. Floyd held the title for all of 1960 and 3/4 of 1961. Williams was certainly a rated contender in 59. By no means am i saying he was knocking the door down or that Floyd should have been fighting him but there was every chance they could have fought in a non mandatory. Doesn't mean Williams didn't have some sort of chance of an upset, which is pretty obvious to most. It's been going on since boxing began. If Williams was one of Marciano's conquests you'd be building him up bigger than a mountain lets be blatantly honest.
if Williams was one of Marcianos conquests I would rate him at Carmine Vingo level. Just a solid win over a live prospect. Which is exactly how I see it for Sonny. Williams was live. I can’t push him further than I would push vingo. In fairness I don’t suggest vingo would beat Charles or anything like that. so under different circumstances than what was actually possible you think there is a 3/4 of a year window where Williams should or could have went ahead of Ingo or Liston against Floyd in a title fight? Good luck with that. Thanks to boilermakers excellent linear ranking system we now know where Williams ranked “in reality” during that year. knocking the #1 contender as flat as a pancake was quite some splash. Machen was undefeated. Its more than just a credible win. It was a sensation. Ingo was already European champion. He had beaten rated fighters already. Machen was not his first win over a rated opponent. Williams is a very powerful puncher and a dangerous offensive fighter up to a level. In his prime film shows that against Terrell and Daniels his offensive danger was more contained against the next level.
And now Williams is no better than Carmine Vingo? Vingo was young, green, with a mediocre ko percentage, 20lbs lighter than Williams, and had never beaten an opponent above journeyman level.
