How does an all time great HW list look....

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by ThePlugInBabies, Jan 17, 2008.


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  1. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I put some heavy stock in the Kilrain fight. The Sullivan Kilrain fight was relly to show that Sullivan was the RIGHTFUL heavyweight champ. This fight had amazing build up. Yes it was fought in the backward woods, but the build up at the time could be compare to a Ali Fraizer build up. It relly was one of important fights of all time. It was the fight that made Sullivan a legend in the same way that Dempsey Firpo, or Louis Conn, or Ali Fraizer or even Marciano Walcott did. It was thee event of its time.
     
    Dempsey1238, Feb 4, 2008
    Dempsey1238, Feb 4, 2008
    #31
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Behave! - Greb never proved himself in the HW division the way that Langford and Fitz did

    I'm not talking about his rating, i'm talking about regarding only fights that are made in the HW division as affecting rankings in the HW division.

    I'll bet that that is right, because there is only one weight division seperating them in a day when the difference between the two biggest divisions was not as pronounced as it is now - however there will be a difference, enough to describe two different weight classes.

    This is because Tunney's greatest achievments are in the light heavyweight division, not the heavyweight division. These are non-transferable!


    I'm not either. But I am more impressed with them than Tunney's one. Throw in Johnson's coloured title run and you have a vastly superiour HW resume, comparing them is ludicrous.


    Basically I mean that i'm allowing for the fact that the Louis win wasn't a massive win yet. I'm doing my best to tell you what I think I would think if I was around at that time. I certainly wouldn't be kicking Baer out any more than I would be adding LOuis to my list (like Amsterdam and some of the progressives might have).

    Basically all I am saying.


    I agree with the first part and not the second. But this proves little aside from they were very different.



    There's a lot of posting going on here for basically one reason - I don't rate Tunney for the fights he had outside the HW division, or rate his wins over fighters who have fought outside the division but then fought him at LHW towards Tunney's heavyweight Resume. Keeping this in mind I think that Tunney's HW resume is weaker - much, much, much weaker - than Baer's.

    As you know, I have Tunney at #11 on my list. I'd have no real problem with seeing him at 9 or 10, but I think talk of having him above the likes of Johnson reaks of favourites.
     
    McGrain, Feb 4, 2008
    McGrain, Feb 4, 2008
    #32
  3. Sonny's jab

    Sonny's jab Guest

    I think Greb at the time Tunney beat him was more proven against full-sized heavyweights than Langford at the time Johnson beat him.

    I haven't trawled through Greb's entire and expansive record to check exactly how many good heavyweights he beat, but I think he beat a good few.

    I dont go along with this.
    The heavyweight division is the OPEN division.
    Tommy Burns weighed 170 when Johnson beat him, strictly speaking he was "in the light-heavy division", but it's still a win that I think adds to his legacy in heavyweight ratings.
    I think Joe Louis's come-from-behind win over Billy Conn says something about him as a heavyweight champion, despite Conn only weighing 174.

    But beating a good 170 pound man is beating a good 170 pound man, whatever way you slice it.

    Some of - half of ! - his defenses of the colored AND white man's championship were against men who went 150 or 170. But these are "transferable" because the fights are billed as "heavyweight" ??
    I can see we just dont see eye-to-eye on this subject.

    Again, we dont see eye-to-eye. It seems to matter to you whether the fights were billed as "in the heavyweight division".
    Anyway, the Gibbons, Dempsey, Heeney and about a dozen other Tunney fights were "at heavyweight".

    I like to strip it down to what it is : two men fighting, weighing whatever they weigh.
    Since the guys we are discussing were often campaigning in their limit divisions AND in the open "heavyweight" division, I dont feel we need to close the fights off from the abstract "heavyweight rating".

    For example, if a prime 165 pound Fitz fights a prime 175 Langford this can affect both the light-heavy AND heavy ratings, IN MY OPINION.

    But I'm rambling now, and I know you have a different view of it.

    I think that's utter nonsense. Baer even lost to guys that Tunney had already beat.

    Fair enough. That's your opinion.
    I think your rating of Baer reaks of favourites.
     
    Sonny's jab, Feb 4, 2008
    Sonny's jab, Feb 4, 2008
    #33
  4. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    The list I have is not my opinion per se, but looking at it from the angle; what I might of done if I was alive in 1937. I too would never rate John L in a Queensberry Rules list today.
     
    TBooze, Feb 4, 2008
    TBooze, Feb 4, 2008
    #34
  5. Senya13

    Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Sullivan looked better in Queensberry rules fights than he did in London Prize Ring. It's silly not to rate him as a gloved fighter.
     
    Senya13, Feb 5, 2008
    Senya13, Feb 5, 2008
    #35
  6. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    I still feel Sullivan's best wins are London Prize Ring. Did he look better under Queensberry? Let's as Apollack.
     
    Mendoza, Feb 5, 2008
    Mendoza, Feb 5, 2008
    #36
  7. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    1. Jack Johnson
    2. Jim Jeffries
    3. Jack Dempsey
    4. Sam Langford
    5. Harry Wills
    6. Jim Corbett
    7. Joe Louis
    8. Bob Fitzsimmons
    9. Max Schmeling
    10. Max Baer

    Sullivan and Jackson not included.

    At this point I think that Louis will probably beat Braddock for the title but when I look at his loss to Schmeling I think it likley that his tenure as champion will be a short one. If he manages to beat Schmeling in a rematch I will consider moving him up a place.
     
    janitor, Feb 5, 2008
    janitor, Feb 5, 2008
    #37
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