How does it sit with you win people rate Tunney high at heavy???

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Maxmomer, Jun 3, 2008.


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  1. Longhhorn71

    Longhhorn71 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    As usual, one of our fellow posters comes up with information that can enlighten us.

    I never knew Dempsey was a natural southpaw.

    "For Dempsey is naturally left handed, gets terrific power into drives with his left, and has scored more than half his greatest triumphs with his paralyzing left hook."

    Good job in the Research Dept.
     
    Longhhorn71, Jun 3, 2008
    Longhhorn71, Jun 3, 2008
    #46
  2. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Let me try and expand upon what my original thinking was.

    Tunney is rated by many if not most, as a top 20 heavyweight. Maybe even top 15. Correct?

    Spinks by comparison would probably be lucky to break the top 60 or even 80. No doubt many would rate him lower. Fair enough...he didn't do a whole lot at heavyweight.

    But did Tunney really? Yes he beat a still dangerous Dempsey twice and then beat Tom Heeney. That's his entire heavyweight resume. For me, that's hardly top 20 material. By comparison, Spinks beat a past it, but still capable Holmes and a past it, but still dangerous Cooney. So for me, their records at heavyweight bear a striking resemblance, but for one fight.

    There's a huge gulf in where Tunney is rated at heavyweight and where Spinks is rated at heavyweight, and to me that boils down to one reason - Spinks was obliterated by Tyson whereas Tunney didn't lose at the weight.

    The Greb fights don't really come into it as they were not contested at heavyweight and this thread is about the ranking of Tunney as a heavyweight.
     
    fists of fury, Jun 4, 2008
    fists of fury, Jun 4, 2008
    #47
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    If you like, my point is just that he was neither "old" or "inactive" as you claimed.
     
    McGrain, Jun 4, 2008
    McGrain, Jun 4, 2008
    #48
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Thanks for claryfying - a couple of things. First, I raised the Greb fights because they were contested at LHW, and your original claim seemed to be about resume generally rather than HW resume - but fair enough. Just to point out that one of the Tunney-Greb fights was technically at HW (the last) and that after that Tunney only fought at 175 on one more occasion, so his HW resume, whilst hardly Langford-like, is deeper than you have indicated.
     
    McGrain, Jun 4, 2008
    McGrain, Jun 4, 2008
    #49
  5. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    As Heavyweight Tunney also beat Bartley Madden by ko 3 ,the only man to stop him,Johnny Risko,by easy n ws dec,Italian Jack Herman byko2 and Tommy Gibbons by ko12 the only man to stop him.Risko beat Baer ,Uzcudon,Godfrey,Sharkey,Schaaf among others ,Tunney easily outpointed him,all these men were heavier than Tunney.
     
    mcvey, Jun 4, 2008
    mcvey, Jun 4, 2008
    #50
  6. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    It would seem I stand corrected. You live and learn.
     
    fists of fury, Jun 4, 2008
    fists of fury, Jun 4, 2008
    #51
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Cavanaugh notes that "when [Dempsey] began training in La in July...most sportswriters were impressed...most picked Demspey to win inside of five rounds..."

    Interestingly, Greb was one of the people to pick Tunney, I find this quote interesting: "You can set me down as a looney when I tell you i've put two grand on Tunney to win...[Dempsey] can't break through Tunney's guard." Greb knew something that Rice, Runyon etc. didn't but he was firmly in the minority.

    It seems that some sports writers were missing something however, i've come across one or two comments which suggest that Dempsey was "holding back" against his sparring partners, which Galico (who was famously KO'd by Jack in sparring) wrote, "That was a laugh....Dempsey...never went easy on anyone would have broken [sparring partner] Tommy Loughran if he could have caught him." So there are cracks. But pre-fight reports, as far as I can see were more likely to read something like this:

    Robert Edgren in The New York Evening Standard World: "There is no doubt that Dempsey has done the impossible and that through a determined grind covering several months, he has overcome the effect of a three-year layoff and come back to fighting form."

    So, in answer to your original question, plenty of people were impressed. Those who picked against him based upon his pre-fight training had to quantify themselves as a "looney".
     
    McGrain, Jun 4, 2008
    McGrain, Jun 4, 2008
    #52
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    How do you think Tunney would go with the man in your avatar?
     
    McGrain, Jun 4, 2008
    McGrain, Jun 4, 2008
    #53
  9. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Greb sparred with Dempsey and Kearns stopped the round as Harry was making a fool of Jack,Dempsey was incapable of holding back in sparring ,his sparring partner Martin Burke ,one of his close friends was unmercifully thrashed in sparring.Larry Gains one of Jack's sparring partners stated when Dempsey stopped his work for the day ,those who hadnt been used would be elated ,"the relief on there faces was something to see".
     
    mcvey, Jun 4, 2008
    mcvey, Jun 4, 2008
    #54
  10. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Rocky? He'd do well against Rocky for a spell...don't know if he had the strength to keep him off for 15 rounds though.
    Tunney was a very intelligent fighter as we know, and kept a record of all contemporary opponent's weaknesses and strengths so he'd have a good deal of info on the Rock before the fight. By contrast, Marciano never wanted to know a single thing about his opponent.

    I think what some have alluded to about Marciano may mislead Tunney somewhat, and that being that Marciano looked quite beatable in the ring, until one had to actually do it for real. What may be misconstrued as a weak point sitting at ringside was not apparent when in the ring with him.

    Nonetheless, Tunney was a better version of LaStarza, who gave Marciano problems, particularly the first fight. LaStarza to this day believes he won the first one.

    I think it could be a quite epic struggle, the classic match of the boxer versus the brawler. Usually the boxer wins but I'd be quite confident picking Rocky, although by no means would this be an easy fight.
     
    fists of fury, Jun 4, 2008
    fists of fury, Jun 4, 2008
    #55
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Even when "rough-housing" he could be devastating. I read a story which I hope isn't true - Dempsey was fooling around with Gus Wilson (his trainer at that time) and he punched Wilson "playfully" to the kidney (????????the kidney????????). Wilson had to go to hospital and have the damaged kidney removed :scaredas:
     
    McGrain, Jun 4, 2008
    McGrain, Jun 4, 2008
    #56
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yeah, good point. I think that Tunney should be favoured (though not with any ready money) over the distance he beat Dempsey over, 10, and Marciano should be favoured (Again, not monetarily) over the 15 round distance. Over 12 I got nothing to say about it. Nobody except maybe Robinson could fight as well going back as Tunney. That may be some sort of anathema to Marciano in the ring.

    How about Spinks-Marciano?
     
    McGrain, Jun 4, 2008
    McGrain, Jun 4, 2008
    #57
  13. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I'd probably favour Tunney over 10 as well, but if Rocky could quickly get into his stride all bets are off.

    Marciano v Spinks?
    Why do I get the feeling I'm being baited here? :hey I don't know honestly. Spinks didn't fight extensively at the weight.
    Under which ruleset? In which era? So many variables...goes for the Tuinney fight as well I suppose.
     
    fists of fury, Jun 4, 2008
    fists of fury, Jun 4, 2008
    #58
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    :lol:

    Just keeping ducking the tough ones Mayweather ;)
     
    McGrain, Jun 4, 2008
    McGrain, Jun 4, 2008
    #59
  15. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    The bottom line is in this question, are Tunneys best HW wins better than:

    Mike Spinks (Holmes/Cooney)
    Mike Moorer (Holyfield)
    Walcott (Charles and arguably Louis)
    Langford (Wills, Jeanette etc)
    Ruiz (Holyfield, plenty of ranked fighters)
    Byrd (Holyfield, Vitali, Tua)
    Patterson
    Douglas (prime Tyson, McCall)
    Young (Foreman, Shavers and arguably Ali)

    I think its pretty certain his HW wins are not better than:

    Bowe (prime Holyfield)
    Norton (Ali (twice?), Young)
    Charles (Louis, Walcott, Moore, loads of ranked guys)
    Wills (Langford 17times and loads more ranked contenders)
    Schmelling - prime Louis, loads of ranked opposition

    I say hes probably top30 at HW, but not top20
     
    PowerPuncher, Jun 4, 2008
    PowerPuncher, Jun 4, 2008
    #60
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