How does JOE FRAZIER do in today's heavyweight division?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by brooklyn1550, May 12, 2008.


  1. brooklyn1550

    brooklyn1550 Roberto Duran Full Member

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    Looking at this highlight tape got me wondering how a prime Frazier would fare against the current crop of heavyweights.

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    Here are my thoughts on some matchups:

    vs Wladimir Klitschko - by far the toughest matchup for Frazier due to Klitschko's sheer size and understanding of distance behind his left jab. It's possible that he keeps Frazier at a distance and catches him coming in. However, given a prime Frazier's footwork, unpredictable bobbing and weaving defense, and in-fighting skills, I see him closing the distance on a tentative Klitschko and making him uncomfortable in close, wearing him down, and stopping him in the middle rounds. Klitschko's kryptonite (or style he is susceptible to if you will) is a skilled, but powerful, swarmer who can get in close.
    My Pick: Frazier TKO 7

    vs Samuel Peter - Peter couldn't deal with a dynamic swarming attack like Frazier's. He'd be forced to fight at a much faster pace than he likes and broken down in close, especially to the body. Simply put, he doesn't have the stamina or defense to last long against somebody with the workrate and power of Frazier. Despite Peter being considered a 'slugger', he's more of a sloppy boxer puncher, and he lacks the power of Foreman, eliminating a real possibility of an early stoppage in his favor.
    My Pick: Frazier TKO 4

    vs Ruslan Chagaev - Chagaev's a tough guy who can do a variety of things; he can apply pressure, punch a little bit, box/move/and counterpunch. However, I can't see him being effective in any style against Frazier. If he tries to fight with Frazier on even terms, he'd get busted up by a much harder puncher, a more technical in-fighter. If he tried boxing, Frazier would simply get the better of him by closing the distance and applying the relentless pressure that defined his game.
    My Pick: Frazier TKO 7

    vs Nicolay Valuev - Valuev is a mammoth of a man. Virtually the opposite of Frazier in this regard. Despite his obvious size advantage, I don't believe he has power, movement, or pole-like jab to keep Frazier off of him. More often than not, Frazier would get in close, connecting on a huge target in Valuev's body. He can take a shot and has excellent stamina for a big guy, so it would be interesting to see if Frazier could chop him down. I think the body attack would be they key, zapping Valuev's energy for the late rounds where the ref is forced to put a halt to the contest.
    My Pick: Frazier TKO 10

    vs Alexander Povetkin - The problem for Povetkin, as promosing as he is, is that he'd be utilizes a similar gameplan as a prime Frazier. He swarms you, throws a high volume of punches, and looks for his body work to pay dividends should the fight go into the later rounds. Frazier was physically stronger, had a good deal more power, and had noticably better defensive skills. I see him busting Povetkin up in close. While I believe Povetkin has a good chin, there's only so much you can take.
    My Pick: Frazier TKO 6

    vs Vladimir Virchis - Virchis is similar to Foreman in some regards; he's not relatively fast, not terribly skilled, but can punch like a mule. With that said, I don't see him finding the same sucess as Foreman. Perhaps he could drop Frazier once, as Bonavena did with right hands, but Frazier was a dog. He'd get right back up, bring the fight to Virchis, and his faster hands and more compact punches would be key during inside exchanges.
    My Pick: Frazier TKO 7

    vs David Haye - Haye's untested at heavyweight, but if his reign at cruiserweight showed us something, it's that his chin is very shaky, his defense is suspect, and his stamina needs work. In all likelihood, he'll be stronger at heavyweight with a better chin, but could he handle Frazier? If it were my guess, I'd say absolutely not.
    My Pick: Frazier KO 2

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    My conclusion is that, despite his small stature in comparison to most modern heavyweights, Frazier's legendary conditioning, heart, underrated defense, and in-fighting would be too much for the current group of heavyweights. It's not about the size of the dog, but the size of the heart in the dog - Frazier embodied this.

    Discuss
     
  2. Zakman

    Zakman ESB's Chinchecker Full Member

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    I think Frazier beats 'em all, except maybe Wlad and Peter.
     
  3. Samurai

    Samurai I lost an avatar bet Full Member

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    imo he beats all of them. Though to be honest, I haven't seen very much of Chagaev.
     
  4. brooklyn1550

    brooklyn1550 Roberto Duran Full Member

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    You think Peter could beat him?

    In my opinion, this would be a terrible matchup for Peter because he lacks in-fighting skills. He'd have a tough time finding Frazier too.
     
  5. Napoleon

    Napoleon Smokin' Full Member

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    He beats them all.

    Maybe Klitschko would beat him 2 out of 10 times.
     
  6. Guru_Too_You

    Guru_Too_You ESB OG circa '99 Full Member

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    Good poll Brooklyn.

    I'd take a prime Joe Frazier over every heavyweight currently fighting almost 10/10 with the exception of Wlad.

    Wlad is too reminiscent of the Foreman that destroyed Joe twice and I could see Wlad employing similar tactics to get the job done.

    However, Wlad's chin and Foreman's chin couldnt be further from one another so I have to give Joe a solid chance of beating Wladimir as well.

    That being said I think in ten bouts Wlad wins 6 and Joe wins 4. Its just the wrong style.
     
  7. brooklyn1550

    brooklyn1550 Roberto Duran Full Member

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  8. Imperial1

    Imperial1 VIP Member Full Member

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    Fraizer would be undispted champ !
     
  9. KobeIsGod

    KobeIsGod Who Necks?!? Full Member

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    what are u talking about!?! Dr. Cottonhammer ko's frazier, ali, foreman, liston, tyson, lewis and marciano within 4 rounds

    seriously though wlad-frazier is coinflip fight in my mind. to me, frazier has the correct style against wlad. he is a pressure fighter with big power. however, his chin has me thinking. Tyson is the absolute worst matchup for Wlad. IMO, he has a better chin than Frazier and devastating two-fisted skill. Frazier is left-hand happy so wlad can use foot movement and his left arm extended to stop Frazier's rushes.

    However, Wlad will land first no doubt and is a monster puncher. Other than Foreman, no one on fraizer's resume can match wlad's two-fisted power. I question if he can hold up to those bombs. Wlad's size is a big factor too especially when u consider his high skill level. His jab could really bust up Frazier's face too.

    u know i respect your opinions tremendously but I dont think wlad will fight a "tentative" fight. It has been shown when pressured and attacked by big punchers, wlad fires back: Brewster I, Peter, etc.... Those guys took awful punishment and displayed iron chins. I have my doubts frazier could take that. Wlad needs to be forced to fight then u will see those huge rights and lefts.

    Now, Frazier is certainly more skilled especially with head movement but he lacks that power right hand too. Wlad can circle left and box the whole fight. He is already shown this.

    However, Wlad has that terrible tendacy to go into a defensive shell when hit. he'll look to clinch and run. Frazier could certainly capitalize here.

    Wlad is a boxer but is an excellent puncher. What is the golden rule: Never follow a puncher. I think if Frazier could stand up to Wlad's power shots and his face doesnt swell too much from the jabs, he can slow Dr. Cottonhammer's :yep foot movement and make him a stationary target and earn a late stoppage. He has no chance to win on pts though.

    Wouldn't be surprised if either man won though. Frazier handles the rest especially Mr. Haye.
    Let me say this though, the peter who fought wlad imo would last the distance with frazier. today's peter doesnt have the conditioning or balance/legs to survive 5 or 6 rounds with smokin joe but wlad tatooed Peter with some wicked power shots and he kept coming forward. a tough fight for joe.
     
  10. brooklyn1550

    brooklyn1550 Roberto Duran Full Member

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    This is a great post. Love the unbiased take on things.

    To me, Klitschko easily represents the biggest problem for Frazier not only because of his size, but ability to use that size to his advantage. They both possess weapons that could end the other's night early. Could Frazier slip Klitschko's jab and get inside to do damage? Or would Klitschko keep him at bay with the jab, setting up big powershots off of it? When Frazier gets in close, could he effectively tie him up? As you know, I lean towards Frazier, but it's an interesting fight.

    Good point about Peter's balance and legs; he doesn't look as sturdy as he did pre-Klitschko, which is why I'd pick Vitali, Wladimir, Haye, Virchis, and Tua to take him out. I'd also take Povetkin, Ibragimov, Chagaev, Valuev, Ruiz, and possibly Chambers over him. H2H, I have trouble putting him top 10.
     
  11. OBCboxer

    OBCboxer Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Frazier would be the best heavy if he fought today. Which is what we need, a clear number one dominating Heavyweight.
     
  12. huki

    huki huk huk ^_^;; Full Member

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    My picks for these matchups are exactly the same as yours, except I think he would beat Valuev by decision, not TKO.

    The fighter who has the best chance against him is Wlad, but I would still pick Frazier to beat him 9/10 times. Frazier would be able to take Wlad's right hand when he needs to and even with his severe size disadvantage, he would still be able to slip his jab and land the huge left hook effectively. Wlad wouldn't be able to throw enough power punches to break Frazier down and Frazier's consistent pressure would be too much for him.

    Samuel Peter would have no chance against him IMO. His power wouldn't bother Frazier and he's just an overall sloppy fighter who would get broken down quickly.

    I think Povetkin would last longer than 6 rounds, but that's only because I believe his chin/toughness is great (even though I understand it's still a question mark).

    Chagaev/Virchis bring nothing to the table against Frazier and if Haye's chin at HW is as weak as it was at CW, then he would be starched early by any A level HW with power.
     
  13. brooklyn1550

    brooklyn1550 Roberto Duran Full Member

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    You know Povetkin much better than I do. How do you see him fighting Frazier? Would he try to swarm him, implement a boxing strategy, or fight an in and out fight?
     
  14. KobeIsGod

    KobeIsGod Who Necks?!? Full Member

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    uh...that's wlad dude. in his last 6 fights, 5 of which have been against top 10 guys, u can count the number of rounds he's lost on one hand :nod

    just because he doesnt have that "tysoneque" style and looks terrified everytime his opponent comes near him shouldn't be held against him :yep
     
  15. KobeIsGod

    KobeIsGod Who Necks?!? Full Member

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    that is an excellent point. i hate when people say, "Wlad only wins because of his size." that is bull****! he has skills to go along with his size and like u said, understands how to use it.

    For example, using circling foot movement; clinching/leaning on smaller opponents; using his long left hand reach by pushing opponents heads down/to the side therby stopping charges. he has very shrewd and underrated defensive skills

    unlike a guy like valuev whose size is his biggest plus or factor in his success. moreover, why aren't guys like mccline, julius long, michael grant, etc... successful? size isnt everything :yep