How does the Classic Forum Rate Pacquiao in an all-time P4P sense?

Generally good post concerning Marquez as a yardstick, but I'm not entirely sure that I fully agree with the last part. It doesn't tell the whole story, but Toney WAS weight-drained (at least to some degree) and a perfect stylistic match-up for Jones. Marquez circa 2004-2007 might also have an edge on the Hopkins of 93 in a certain sense. Other than those two, Manny's competition has been considerably higher than Jones' throughout their careers, even if it involved the odd struggle on Pac's part.

 

What they said is a long ways off from what you just stated and what I myself agree with. The Cotto win was definitely his biggest and best, though Marquez remains his best opponent, and the only one he never conclusively beat (outside of his early days of course). I too see it as his biggest achievement. I saw Pac as the level of fighter that could and should beat Cotto prior to the fight, and I generally held out on ranking him prior because I wasn't 100% certain until after the fight when he confirmed it. That is why I'm now dead-set on his abilities as a fighter. That leaps him from the top 50 discussion to a top 40 inclusion. That's a pretty considerable jump, I don't know how you could say otherwise or that I'm "lowballing" him.

 

Channel 4 commisioned Brass Eye and Peep Show so they're nit all bad. Mantequilla, I feel Pac has the superior resume to Marquez, although as a massive fan it's a testament to his skillset, intelligence and toughness that he has matched up so well with Pac. I feel the lighter fighters can deal with Hindus to being able to deal with speed with their own, Pac retains the speed and somehow gets stronger and more powerful, becoming more polished with every fight. I want Pac-JMM 3 next, I feel with Pacs increased power and technique, and Marquezs increased aggression and age, we will finally see a definitive winner. I like Pac by KO but as a massive Marquez fan I'd be happy either way. I scored the 2nd fight 115-112 to Marquez, but Pac has a lot of better names and more aesthetically pleasing (not in terms if visually pleasing but in terms of actually seeing someone look the better fighter) performances, the Cotto and Hatton wins trump Juan Diaz and old Casamayor IMO, Marquez has always been solid, but he doesn't have the 'wow' factor resume wise IMO and it's only an opinion. Between 90-100 on my alltime list.

 

As McGrain said, there are different degrees. Pacquiao, like Ali and Jones, trusts his "tune" enough to punch out of positions and angles you shouldn't utilise according to conventional wisdom, but his ability to do so makes him very difficult to face. There's absolutely nothing mechanical about him and that's always a tricky proposition for fighters that prefer to react on their opponents.

 

Offensively I'd agree, his attack is amazing. I don't consider it on the level of say Duran, but it's unquestionably his strongest suit when concerning his overall effectiveness as a fighter. I still wouldn't say he's more capable and controlled with his movements than a lot of other greats, just more unorthodox. I for one think a guy like Orlando Canizales had more impressive offensive variety and control than Pacquiao.

 

Brilliant.

 

I rate Pac above him as well Flea, but i'm not convinced he's that much better a fighter.

 

This thread's too long to root through now, what did CH4 say?

I was on page 5 a few hours ago posting now 11 pages?!

 

IMO to rate an active fighter, you need to assume a worse case scenario from now on in his career, if you do not want these things to bite your behind.

That said, I have given him huge kudos in my summary, rating him above fellow Filipino Flash Elorde...

I suspect in the fullness of time, Pacquiao will also go up my list rather than down, as he and his rivals retire, and can be examined by history and hindsight.

 

I wouldn't either, in a general sense. It's his control in more improvised situations that I think marks him out, how he instantly can reset and gain leverage in just about any position. And yes, that is the mark of the unorthodox to a large degree. But an unorthodox fighter with a solid foundation, i e not a Naseem Hamed.

 

They've even got you.

 

Haha, yoiu are a legend.

 

Cheers mate but nah, just a bit disappointed.