How does the Classic Forum Rate Pacquiao in an all-time P4P sense?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Rumsfeld, Nov 15, 2009.


  1. Grinder

    Grinder Dude, don't call me Dude Full Member

    5,856
    2,567
    Mar 24, 2005
    I personally would love to see the hypothetical Pac vs Kostya Tszyu at 140, two guys we have all (I assume) seen fight. I thought KT, and in particular his devastating right hand, would be too much for Pac until last night. Now I'm not entirely sure that KT can stop Pac, and in that case, Pac's speed would overwhelm KT.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

    82,426
    1,467
    Sep 7, 2008
    Nowadays, it's quality of opposition rather than weight-jumping or belts, because previously 'World' champions had to beat/be the best and nowadays with four baubles that isn't always the case. Whether Cotto or Mosley are the premier Welter or not, Cotto hold a win over Mosley and Pac became the first to legitimately drop Cotto with a punch, the 2nd kd was a beautiful uppercut and I truly believe Pac is now in the upper echelon (top 20?) of alltime punchers. However, this is no Duran-Leonard 1/Ali-Foreman, but another good win for an already impressive resume. PAC proved his punch resistance last night, he can take a decent whack at Welter, though I wouldn't imagine him lasting the distance with Leonard/Duran/Napoles/Hearns/Robinson and many, many more. For me, as always based on resume+skillset is that Pac is probably anywhere between 25-35, probably about 20 on a post-war list.
     
  3. Grinder

    Grinder Dude, don't call me Dude Full Member

    5,856
    2,567
    Mar 24, 2005
    What is your unbias opinion of Pac vs Sweet Pea at 140?
     
  4. Tin_Ribs

    Tin_Ribs Me Full Member

    4,405
    3,879
    Jun 28, 2009
    Cotto isn't Tszyu, not by a long stretch. Interesting fight though.
     
  5. Sweet Pea

    Sweet Pea Obsessed with Boxing banned

    27,199
    93
    Dec 26, 2007
    I heavily favor Mayweather to beat Pacquiao and you're asking me how I think he'd fare against Whitaker? Pacquiao is a great fighter, but he looks a lot better against certain styles than others. Whitaker is all wrong for him. At the very least Marquez made that clear, and I believe Floyd would as well were that fight to ever come off.
     
  6. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

    82,426
    1,467
    Sep 7, 2008
    Peas consistent jab, superior infighting and good chin would see break Pacs rhythm, and his radar-like defence would see him ship far less artillery against primarily offensive-minded fighters like Cotto and Hatton, although Cotto has at least tried to learn defence. Why I don't feel Floyd will beat Pac now is that he lacks Pernells workrate.
     
  7. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

    49,541
    16,031
    Jul 19, 2004
    Good stuff, everyone. I'm finding this a thoroughly enjoyable read.

    I'm curious where you would rate Pacquiao compared to this random list of fighters (some of whom have been specifically mentioned already):

    * Alexis Arguello
    * Roy Jones Junior
    * Marvelous Marvin Hagler
    * Pernell "Sweet Pea" Whitaker
    * Henry Armstrong
    * Archie Moore
    * Roberto Duran
    * Emile Griffith
    * Jose Napoles
    * Muhammad Ali
    * Joe Louis
     
  8. Sweet Pea

    Sweet Pea Obsessed with Boxing banned

    27,199
    93
    Dec 26, 2007
    If I had to make the call, I'd probably even favor Pacquiao over the old Mosley, but I'd bet my ESP rep that Mayweather beats him. I could see Pac taking 3 or 4 rounds in a losing effort, though.
     
  9. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

    49,541
    16,031
    Jul 19, 2004
    I agree that Whitaker is all wrong for Pac, but strangely enough, I think Pac will beat Cotto. Floyd simply has not dared to be great and has not sought out the best available welterweight challenges whereas Pacquiao has and Sweet Pea did before him.

    I think this is an important factor when one considers the mindset of the three fighters.
     
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,004
    48,096
    Mar 21, 2007
    I prefer to just say he won a title at flyweight. It's true, uncomplicated and relevant.

    My point is that Pacquiao is doing something that you used to consider impossible. Your position seems to be that you've overated Pacquiao after he's beaten...whoever it was he beat when the penny dropped for you how great he was, so the Cotto win doesn't have any real impact on his legacy? You basically gifted him credit he hadn't yet earned, thus explaining your position that this win "only confirmed" your opinion of him? I supposed that would be fair enough, especially as you were right, but i do feel you're lowballing him a bit.
     
  11. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

    49,541
    16,031
    Jul 19, 2004
    I think Mosley beats Pac (and Floyd for that matter).

    I favor Pac to beat Floyd, but a Floyd victory would not surprise me. However, if Floyd were to beat Pac he is going to have to do something we've never seen him do before--FIGHT! He won't just have to overcome adversity, which is something he's arguably done in victories over Castillo and Judah, but he will be forced to fight a level of intensity we are not accustomed to seeing.

    I'm not sure he has it in him, and again, I reference Floyd's reluctance to really challenge himself.
     
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,004
    48,096
    Mar 21, 2007
    I got him above these three for sure.
     
  13. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

    49,541
    16,031
    Jul 19, 2004
    Do you think fighters like Hagler get short-changed for exhibiting dominance in a single weight class without jumping around?
     
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,004
    48,096
    Mar 21, 2007

    No. But I think the fact that he only fought in one division impacts his ranking.
     
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,004
    48,096
    Mar 21, 2007
    Channel four news has just announced that "Manny Pacquaio has a claim to being the greatest boxer of all time".