Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by SuzieQ49, Aug 7, 2018.
do you hold it against him for not taking on any of them?
No...managers picked the fights then. If it didn't do anything to further Zales career then they didn't make the fight IMO. Zale as a fighter showed he didn't fear anyone IMO The man was a warrior and a Navy Vet.
ok, How does he do against them? Head to head in your opinion?
That's a tough question.
Burley and William's beat him IMO the rest I honestly don't have a complete enough picture on. I'm assuming you asking about the obscure group of murderers row and not including the well known likes of Moore Charles Bivins and so on
For boxing fans starting in the early 60's, re: the War Era from 1941-1947 or so, when all the previous champs were getting reestablished, it is hard to get a real grasp on the fighters of that time frame. Now with YouTube, and some of these great posters on this site, we can get a better viewpoint....with all the fighters getting a fair shake..no matter what their background is. Basically most of those guys fought their hearts out for the fans.
In the first place there never was a time where there were so many fighters good enough to be champions. It’s not like now. Every fighter good enough to win 20 fights has a belt these days.
There was not enough titles for all of the fighters good enough to be champion in that period but that shouldn’t take away from the fact that the guys who got there were still good enough to win the titles themselves. Zale And Lesnevich were worthy champions. It’s just that There were a lot of other world class fighters just as good. It dosnt make the others better.
then they froze the belts a in the war years. This could exaggerate the extent of quality fighters not getting a title shot too. And it still dosnt prove the guys with the titles were not good enough to win their belts.
I firmly think zale beats 50% of the row. And I believe all of the murderers row can lose to guys with titles. People forget that part.
Which 50% does he beat ?
From 1930 until1951 when Robinson won the title,the following black middleweights were ranked.
Q . How many title shots did they receive in those 21 years?
The question isn't whether those winning the titles were good enough to win them, but rather were those I named good enough to receive title shots?
If they were ,[which is rather obviously so,] why didn't any of them get one?
Any of them. They were all as good as each other. It’s difficult to tell which one stood out isn’t it? Lloyd Marshall, Charley Burley, Archie Moore, Cocoa kid. Zale is 50-50 with any of those guys. They all beat him and they all lose to him.
Match making and investment makes fighters look like champions. Within a group of the same standard you can make anyone of them look like a dominant champion. Career timing, opponent selection.
If the group who decided on Joe Louis had of decided on Jersey Joe Walcott like they almost did... and Joe Louis had of been left to work on garbage trucks and fight part time he would have been “Jersey Joe Louis” and Walcott would have been the “joe -the brown bomber- Walcott” instead.
All of them were good enough to receive title shots. I agree.
Why didn’t they get them? Probably because they didn’t have the right manager. Probably because there was a war on.. Probably because there were too many other fighters just as good. And Mostly probably because there were fighters less good who would sell just as many or more tickets.
Joe Louis had the right management, publicists and promoter. He sold the right amount of tickets and He did rather well. And thank god for that.
America entered the war on December 7th 1941 with the advent of Pearl Harbour,so you can scrub 41 that leaves us 42-45, what about from 1930 to 42, and from 45 to 51 that 13 years.Sorry your premise has more holes than a sieve.
Who on Zale's record is as good as Burley,Williams,Charles, Moore, Marshall ?
He publicly ADMITTED ducking Charles and Bivins from receiving title shots
Zale himself was as good. He beat Soose, Apostoli, Graziano, Hostac and Abrams. Tony gave away 11 pounds to last the distance with a guy who nearly beat Joe Louis months earlier!
Georgie Abrams beat Cocoa kid Took Sugar Ray Robinson to a split decision and Drew with Charlie Burley anyway. And he was a white guy. There was a lot of talent out there.
He was a class fighter and the Row were a bit ragged, bad training, no money, working other jobs, he could have scored some W's in the right circumstances probably.
That maybe so but it didn’t mean Lesnevich didn’t become Ring Magazine fighter of the year did it?
Technically Gus should have fought them as champion but should he really have turned down all that money to fight in Europe?
Gus was good enough to be champion. He beat Christafordis, mills, Billy Fox, Tami Mauriello and knocked out Melio Betina in one round.