How does Usyk do against these past great heavyweights in their primes?

He’s a great fighter. But he’s still unproven at HW. It’s far too early to be making the kinds of predictions which have been made by numerous people here.

The reason that I said that you’d been ignorant, is because you typed this:

 

So what does Tyson do when he doesn't stop Uysk inside of three rounds? Does he bite him like he did against Holyfield? Does he try to break his arm like he did against Botha? When Uysk starts beating him and puts him down Does he stare blankly at him while seated on his ass like he did against Williams? Does he quit in the corner like he did in his last fight in DC that I was at? When the going gets tough does Tyson rely on his long and distinguished 30 fight amateur career to try and counter Uysk's 400 fight amateur career. Can he dig down deep and win a fight late when his power isn't enough?

Let me guess, you are going to claim those losses weren't prime Mike Tyson even though Uysk himself is in his mid 30's now like Tyson was when he was quiting against multiple fighters.

One guys prepares like a true champion and will take on all challengers even when he is in an opponents backyard. The other is a quitter, headcase and a three or four round fighter.

Mike Tyson while athletically gifted is not half the fighter Uysk is. That's right, I said it and mean it.

 

He did not put on a lot of muscle-it is a little or very possibly none at all.
If you are right, he will be somewhat heavier than his weight in the last fight, 221.5 lbs, & no more body fat.
Or around the same weight & sliced like a pro bodybuilder on stage.

He looks about the same, & I'll bet will be around the same poundage in the weigh-in.

 

It doesn’t matter what level he’s at.

Floyd Mayweather toyed with Canelo, but then struggled against a crude Maidana just 8 months later.

Usyk is immensely skilled.

However, against all of those guys mentioned, he’d at some stage encounter someone which would have given him a huge stylistic issue.

Everybody has a stylistic nemesis.

Usyk is a 6’3 technician.

A chess player.

However, he’s never fought an ATG HW.

He’s never fought a pressure fighter with incredible speed and power like Mike Tyson.

He’s never fought anyone with the power and skill as Lennox.

He’s never fought anyone as strong as Foreman.

Nobody with the jab of Holmes.

Nobody with the style of Ali etc.

It’s never just about who the most skilled guy is.

It’s why we saw Thomas Hearns lose twice to a guy like Iran Barkley.

Usyk could beat an ATG HW, but struggle, or even lose to a much lesser guy based upon styles.

 

Which HWs ? he was fighting HWs all his life.

Did you watch this ?

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Maybe this ?

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and this topic about past HWs, who are small. you and we all know it, but you chose to still comment like that.

 

"although his record against good modern sized HWs is very limited"

Not if you consider the WSB, which are virtually 5 round pro fights in all but name. Usyk's performances in that tourney were outstanding, soundly defeating 6 HW's, including 4 SHW's:

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"In the ratings among boxing fans here, only one had it at all close before the TKO:"

Eyeonthering is just one metric (and most fans favour Ali, including in fights he was very fortunate to win) Ali took a considerable amount of punishment against Milde:

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Compubox is another metric, which has Ali outlanding Mildenberger just 154-144 over 12. 195 lbs, 73 inch reach Mildenberger outlanded Ali in 6 rounds.

"& say how many rounds Usyk lost in his very limited HW career against non-world beaters"

B-side Usyk had the major disadvantages of the officials in Britain trying to rob him and the setup of the fights against him. If neutral, he didn't lose 9 rounds over 24 against those 240-255 lbs behemoths: one a world title challenger and a veteran, the other a SHW champion.

"You chose the one with the least wins & the most losses."

I used Boxrec, which lists six defeats and documents claims from a local journal at the time for another two. If another source had claimed without evidence that Ali had more losses than this I wouldn't have taken it seriously.

"Also you must know that Ali had a great amateur record"

Yes but this is less relevant in the Usyk comparison than the fact that at least two of the eight fighters Ali lost to were southpaws, which considering the even lower proportion of HW southpaws in the past is massive overrepresentation. Ali's relative struggles against Milde further buttress the case that Ali had serious problems with southpaws, so it's a bit ridiculous to favour him over the CW and HW southpaw GOAT, who is 50 years more advanced in terms of science and knowledge. The fact that Usyk has studied Ali extensively but 1966 Ali had never even fought a southpaw of any level as a pro prior to Milde makes the concept of competitiveness here farcical.

 

I never said that Usyk couldn’t beat any of them.

What I said, is that you couldn’t just have made Usyk the favourite, based on the fact that those guys had never fought or beaten a southpaw as good.

That is an ignorant statement.

Why?

Because there’s also many other factors to consider.

You also obviously have to look at who Usyk has and hasn’t fought, as well as looking at how they’d all realistically have matched up on the night stylistically.

Yes, of course you have the right to agree with whoever you want.

I was simply saying that the opinion of the guy who you’ve agreed with is ignorant, as he’s only looked at one factor.

Can you not see that?

Did Lennox and Mike ever beat a southpaw as good as Usyk?

No.

Okay.

Would that have made Usyk a clear favourite over them then?

How about looking from other angles, at other relevant factors?

Usyk has only had THREE fights at HW, where he’s beaten nobody who even resembles those guys, either in skills or styles.

A guy who had tough fights and lost rounds at CW.

A guy who is great technically, but who lacks size and power.

That was my point.

The guy has only looked at the one southpaw experience factor, whilst ignoring everything else that’s relevant.

 

If Uysk is unproven at Heavyweight then so is Marciano, Dempsey, Charles, Patterson, Louis, Walcott etc.

Uysk beat Joshua who ended the career of Vladimir Klitschko who was one of the longest reigning champions in the divisions history.

 

It does matter. There are styles and levels, and those who are great overcome bad stylistic match-ups.

 

AJ was exhausted.

He’d have been taken out had the round have lasted a little longer.

Usyk has respectable power, but he hasn’t got the power that many HW’s on the list possessed.

 

He was hurt.

I agree he has respectable power, but like Ali, he has that magical ability to turn it up a notch when he needs it.

 

I'm not going to speak for him, but I believe he was simply saying that being a southpaw would be an advantage against some of those guys and I can tell you that it certainly would be. Up until the 90's, most heavyweights that were natural southpaws were converted to conventional fighters. The Cubans had one of the few national programs that didn't try and convert southpaws thatbI can think of.

Guys like Holmes and Lewis that were know for having excellent jabs didn't want any part of fighting a southpaw because their lead hand would lined up against their lefthanded opponents Jab which would effectively neutralize their own jab. I always hated fighting southpaws for that very reason. The only advantage for the conventional fighter is it is much easier to land a straight right hand against a southpaw.

Now think about this. If Holmes and Lewis never fought a southpaw while Uysk has fought probably 75% or more of his fights against conventional fighter's. You don't think that is an advantage for Uysk?

 

"many of those above names could be favoured over him, irrespective of whether or not they’d beaten a southpaw"

If a fighter has never fought a southpaw and hardly even sparred southpaws then it's extremely difficult to favour them over the southpaw HW GOAT who has a list of attributes as long as your arm. Southpaw is not some minor, almost irrelevant advantage: fighters even today with plenty of good sparring acknowledge how difficult it is to fight lefties and the statistics back this up. A fighter who is on good form can be made to perform poorly by the southpaw stance. It's always difficult to fight against but some are totally thrown off by it. You don't know if a fighter can deal with it unless they experience it and if they haven't experienced it in a long career it suggests they would struggle and were probably avoiding it.

"Did Mike ever beat a southpaw as great as Usyk?"

Tyson never fought a southpaw full stop, let alone beat a good one, let alone the best ever.

"Usyk has absolutely nothing to have kept a prime Mike off of him. Nothing."

That's a fantasy, even Byrd was able to keep Vitali honest. Tyson would have to take Usyk out in the first few rounds otherwise Usyk's vastly superior engine would take over down the stretch and Tyson would lose a wide decision. Usyk has an iron jaw, excellent defence and can ride out pressure and power, whereas Tyson (who is considerably smaller than Usyk) failed to get a lot of his opponents out of there inside 4 rounds. Tyson also always had A-side advantage, so take that away (ring, canvas, officiating) and he becomes less effective still.

"Usyk is in-experienced against any great HW"

240 lbs SHW champion Joshua would beat most of the greats from the past and 255 lbs title challenger veteran Chisora would beat his fair share too. If you disagree then whatever, I'm not going to convince you.

"your post lacks credibility when you refer to guys like Moorer and Byrd as LHW’s."

Even Byrd referred to himself as a "blown-up super-middleweight". It's no less "credible" than referring to Usyk as a CW because that's the weight he fought at, just as Moorer and Byrd were LHW's prior to campaigning at HW. Moorer and Byrd in particular are much smaller men than Usyk, who doesn't have to pump himself up to make HW. Rather he stops cutting weight and he's 15 stone naturally.

 

1966 Ali vs 2018 Usyk

Ali: 24 years old, started boxing age 12, 88 confirmed amateur bouts with a record of 80-8 (3 rounders, 264 rounds max) 25 pro (144 rounds contested)

Usyk: 31 years old, started boxing age 15, 350 amateur bouts with a record of 335-15 (3-4 rounders, 1050-1400 rounds max) 6 semi-pro (25 rounds contested) 14 pro (105 rounds contested)

Ali had been knocked down from head shots twice in the previous 15 fights/4.5 years (Sonny Banks, Henry Cooper) hadn’t fought a southpaw in 6 years, had lost to at least two southpaws in the amateurs (Kent Green by KO, Amos Johnson by SD) and 2013 Usyk was heavier than 20/25 of Ali’s pre-Mildenberger opponents. 1966 Ali went life and death with European champion southpaw Mildenberger over 12 rounds, who was 6’1 with a 73 inch reach, 195 lbs, had been KO’d twice and registered a 31% KO ratio, with 0 KO’s in his previous 5 fights.

The truth hurts.

 

22 year old Holmes fought a southpaw called Nick Wells in the amateurs twice and he got KO'd twice.

I'm sure that's just a meaningless little factoid and Holmes would 15-0 Usyk anyway, despite never fighting southpaws after that for some unfathomable reason!