How does Vitali Klitschko do against some of the greats?

I'm confused again. You're using numbers. Do you want to use records and ring magaizne ratings in this thread or not? Vitali's last fight was 2004. Many of those guys in 2006 were not rated in 2004.

I think eveyrone here knows if not for the injury, Vitlai easily beats Byrd. In a rating sense, this fight means little. It was a fluke injury that swong the outcome, and that's it.

I know most of them. Simply look at their ring record...I know you dismiss such things, but many of those top 10 ring magaizne rated guys ( things you refer to at times ) were beaten by journeyman and flat out lost too many times. Its true. Vitlai would roll though most of the fighters on that list.

I listed ranking in ten year increments from 100 years 1906', 16,' 26', 36', 46', 56', 66', 76', 86', 96, and 2006'. I say Vitali would be #1 in 5 of the 11 listed decades. If anyone disagrees, $hit or get off the pot. It seems no one besides Magoo has commented on this and he mostly agrees with me.

I also beleive there would be very few decades where Vitlai would be listed as #4th best. Maybe 1 of 11.

I question the caibler of many all time greats who beat 3rd or 4th rated ring magazine guys. Check the ratings you see they are no better than Kirk Johnson or Corrie Sanders. In fact, I think Johnson and Sanders would beat alot guys that Ring Magazine rated #3 or #4. I under stand ring records a lot less to you than to me, but there is no dount guys liek Johnson or Sanders were much bigger, and in most cases hit hit harder than the majoirty of ring ranked heavies in past decades. Things like this matter in the heavyweight divison.

More on this later...

 

Mendoza Quote:
How would he do against the best prime contenders of his era like:

Ike Ibeaubchi - In jail. Could not fight.
Tua - Fat, eaisly out boxed
Rahman - Lost too many times
Ruiz - beaten by two blown up middles
Valuev - Not that good
RJJ - Would get KTFO vs a heavyweight puncher
Toney- Please....
Tyson...Shot to peices, would be TKO'd
Holyfield...On the delcine, would liekly lose
Brewster... Small chance at an upset, liekly a loser
Wlad ....only one with a real chance.
Golota...never won a big fight
Changeev...To ealry to tell, I would guess no
Gomez...Please...Ko'd in 1.
Sam Peter....He has beaten who?
Maskaev....too CHinny.

PowerPuncher Says:

Yes I agree with the above fighters weaknesses BUT the fact remains they were far bigger dangers to Vitali than anyone he beat. Saying Wlad is the only 1 with a chance is bogus, Ibeauchi I would make favourate and Tua/Rahman/2000Tyson/Toney would all have at least a 30% chance for my money. The others have a 5-10% chance of an upset. They have as good a shot as Sanders/Byrd had.

Ibeauchi - was in jail later but couldn't Vitali have fought Ike instead of Byrd? Ike had just beaten Byrd but in 1999 Byrd was choosen as Vitalis opponent. If this isn't selective match making I don't know what is

Tua - wasnt fat in his prime. He was easy to outbox until he ko'd his opponent. In 1999-2000 may have got to Vitali

Rahman - yes lost allot but stopped Lennox/Sanders so could upset the apple cart and those wins put him on Vitalis level if were honest

Valuev - tough opponent for anyone, Vitali probably wins but loses rounds on the way

Toney - amazing skills and better than Byrd.

Tyson - was past his best BUT was far better than Sanders Pre2003. Tyson was faded in the 00s but Pre-Lewis would be a massive threat to Vitali. Around 2000 I would make Tyson a favourate over Vitali. 2002 its probably 50-50. After that it sways in Vitalis favour.

Holyfield - done after Lennox but still better than anyone outside Lennox/Byrd/Sanders that Vitali faced

This is the main problem with Vitali he didn't face the best fighters and retired before he could start to prove himself.

Against D and C Level he did fantastically. But all those statistics against D Level fighters are meaningless. Ricky Hatton had amazing statistics in terms of rounds lost Pre-Mayweather it didn't do him any good against Mayweather and I see Vitali the same way

 

Vitali is not no1 in 4 decades, he is number1 in the years that are particularly weak that you chose to compare him in.

Why not choose 1960 instead of 66 or 56?? 56 and 66 don't have Liston/Frazier. Why not choose 1950 instead of 1956 where there is no Marciano/Liston? Why not choose 1920 instead of 1926 when the best 2 HWs of the Era in Wills and Dempsey are fading?

Vitali is a top contender in any era BUT he hasn't proven himself above top contender level.

 

You didn't come down in the last shower on this one i see

:good

 

I have commented on this.
I said there are guys there who if matched with Vitali Klitschko I would consider the outcome a 50-50 proposition.
Fighters who come in rated anywhere from 1 to 6 or 7.

Now, to gain a top rating in any year, you dont necessarily have to beat all the guys beneath you.

Ratings are a reflection of the combined circumstances of all the fighters at a certain point in time.

So, of course, it is conceivable that Vitali could be rated at where you say he would be (or close to it) at any point in time esp. IF we were to imagine him having his peak year at the point in time highlighted.

So I'm not arguing against your claim that he COULD gain a high rating in any era.

But I suspect you're blurring the issue of him being rated highly, somehow implying that he would NECESSARILY be rated in that place, and that all the fighters underneath that place would not be able to beat him, would be no real threat to him.
(I suspect that because you seem to link the quality of some of the guys Vitali beat with this ratings thing that you've introduced to the debate)

Let's take 1986 as an example.
Of course, it's not difficult to conceive Vitali being rated 2 behind Tyson.

But it really would depend on the circumstances of what he's doing at the time, who he fights, how he performs, and how that stacks up against the others. Circumstances dicatate.

I mean, if Berbick had fought Tubbs or Tucker instead of Tyson in 1986 he might be rated number 1 as of year's end, and Tyson would still be down in 6 or 7. Or Tubbs or Tucker may be rated number 1 as of year's end, Tyson at 6 or 7.

Vitali, I think would beat Smith, but guys like Berbick, Tubbs, and Thomas could be even money propositions in my eyes. So, yes, Vitali could be rated number 2 by beating them, or by by beating one of them, or perhaps without beating them, but alternatively he might be rated lower - by being beaten perhaps, or simply due to the circumstances of what he did versus what others did.

That's how rating works.
So I'm not inclined to argue against your claims that he could achieve those high ratings, but that doesn't mean I reckon he's necessarily a superior or far superior fighter to some of the guys who put him in front of.

 

Actually, I thought Moorer clearly won that fight, and it was an extremely pathetic incarnation of Moorer.

"Prime Holyfield" my ass. He gave a little trouble to a past-his-prime Holyfield who was totally looking past him. Remember, going the distance with Holyfield or Moorer is not the same kind of accomplishment as going the distance against someone like Lewis or Tyson. After all, Bobby Czyz went the distance with Holyfield, and no respectable top 30 ATG would have Bobby Czyz as one of their top 5 wins, would they?

Basically, a poor Moorer or a poor Holyfield is only slightly superior to Vitali Klitschko, similar to how £5 is only slightly more valuable than $8. An older, less spirited and less fit (compare Bean's punch output against Holyfield or Moorer to his output against Klitschko) Bean would naturally be easier pickings.

It's interesting that you note that Klitschko could stop Bean. However, unlike Holyfield, he was incapable of knocking Bean down. That just goes to show that Vitali's power is overrated, since Holyfield was hardly the heaviest hitter of the 1990s.

I never said he wasn't talented, I said that he was unaccomplished and that he has a joke of a record, a statement that you have been unable to dispute. If you look at Bean's wins, rather than his losses, the story is laughable: Kenny Craven (one of the few boxers on Bean's win list to have a winning record) best known for beating Butterbean... At the second and third attempts (just); he stopped Kimmuel Odum (an impressive little achievement if he'd done it about six years earlier); and that's about it.

How can anyone justify such a boxer getting not one, but two world title shots in the first place, even if it was for the IBF title? If Bean was a notable opponent, he'd have been able to do more than be awkward against lazy world class boxers and pad his record.

 

Not sure about that Donald can out box you, Hide, Sanders, and Johnson could punch.

Ike regressed after the Byrd loss. I'm not sure who won the Ike vs Tua match.

Maybe, but Tua doesn't get past pwoer jabs.

Vitlai beat Sanders more impressively than Rhaman did. RHaman was just a good contender. No more.

I doubt Valuev wins more than 2 roudns.

This has to be a joke. Byrd's heavyweight resume is far better than Toney's.

Tyson lost his edge after the Holfyield fights.

Holfyfield had his hands full with guys like Ruiz.Vitlai would TKO Holy in the 00's.

Wrong. Vitlai did face good fighters. His main problem was technical losses in fights he was winning vs Lewis and Bryd. His main problem was neither Lewis or Byrd wanted a re-match.

Hatton was a pound for pound type of fighter for a while. I don't think you view Vitlai in the same way. I would add Vitlai did well vs Grade A-D level fighters. It was a fluke injury and a cut, not him going down or getting out boxed.

 

1. Being able to punch doesn't make you a top level fighter. Hide/Donald/Sanders were below the best of this era

2. Ike was a beast until he got thrown in prison. Lets not pretend that Ike wasn't far more dangerous and a level above Byrd

3. Tua got past many a jab - he caught Lennox clean plenty of times. He also got past the jabs of Ruiz, Moorer, Maskeev, Rahman, Oquendo to score brutal KOs.

4. Well Rahman beat a younger Sanders quicker. He also obviously beat a younger Lennox Lewis. So like it or not that puts him ahead of Vitali resume wise.

5. I don't know Valuev would likely lose but is a tough style due to his height and size

6. No Toney is proven to be far better at HW. His attack was far better, his skill was better. Toney was more impressive against Holyfield. The Ruiz win is also very good. Byrd has far too many gifts on his resume - Golota/McCline are 2 I scored against Byrd. Many had Oquendo beating Byrd. Toney was well past it when he lost to Peter

7. Yes but Tyson/Tua are nightmare styles for Vitali. Speed/Power/Intensity combination is all wrong for someone with the leaning back hands low style

8. Yes holy was past it but Ruiz is very underrated because hes so boring. Ruiz is very effective but limited. His constant beating his opponent to the punch and not letting them get anything off (grab) is very hard to beat

9. No he didnt face the best of his era and thats the problem.

As for his Byrd loss - no one made him quit. He should have bit down on his gum shield soaked up the pain and improvised. He gave up and quit.

As for the Lennox loss getting hit with massive straight rights that cut your eye open is not a freak injury its a TKO cuts loss. The cut looked very dangerous.

10. My point is Hatton has such a good record of not losing many rounds because he avoided top competition. Hatton avoided Witter, Judah, Mayweather, Harris and many others and had a very high percentage of rounds won.

But just like Vitali Hatton would lose far more rounds if he fought better opposition. Vitali has such a high number of rounds won because he feasted on D Class opponents much like Hatton.

 

Vitlai never had a big chance to fight Ike. Lewis, Tyson, and Holyfield did.

Tua is an easy fight for Vitali. Tua did not catch Lewis clean plenty times.

And Rahman was down and nearly out vs Sanders. Rhaman did beat Lewis, but he also lost worse to Lewis than Vitlai did.

Donald deserved the nod vs Valuev. Ruiz vs Vlauev was close. Vitlai woudl easily win this match.

Toney was jucied at heavy, and proved little besides beating up an old Holyfield. Byrd's over all resme is far better, with wins over Tua, Vitlai, and Holyfield.

Not so. Tyson and Tua are low punch out put guys in the 00's. Both are about 5'10" and have little punching range. If VItlai leans back a bit, he's out of their range. Tyson was ODA vs Leiws. Vitlai TKO's that Tyson.

Ruiz is a lucky fighter. The ref should have docked him points. COudl Ruiz win without clinching?

Lewis was the best of his era. Vitlai was up 4-2 on all cards prior to stoppage of the cut. Hence Vitlai proved he could beat hte best.

I agree. Vitlai is a smart guy, and feared for his career, which at that point did not have huge pay days. Many ATG's gave up. Where was the re-match? Lewis and Bryd did nto want one, and IMO would not win the re-match.

Where's the re-match. I'm not 100% sure the cut was caused soley by a punch.

Hatton lost more rounds than Vitlai did going into the Mayweather match.

Lewis and Byrd are " A " Fighters. Sanders, Hide, Johnson, Donald, etc, are what you might refer to as " B " fighters. Vitlai lost very few rounds to anyone. To say he only dominated score cards vs only grade C and D fighters is wrong.

 

1. Vitali could have fought better opposition than he did though and he could have fought anyone 2003 onwards and fought weak opposition before PREMATURELY RETIREING

2. Tua isn't an easy fight until the bell rings and you haven't been KO'd. Tua has a good chance to KO Vitali, especially Prime Tua (Pre-Ike Tua)

3. I'd rather win and lose than simply have loss. Rahman will have a greater footnote in boxing history than Vitali. Vitali-Rahman is no easy fight otherwise Vitali would have taken the fight rather than retire

4. Vitali would probably beat Valuev, I would give him 90% chance but Valuev is better than most of Vitalis opponents and in boxing when you mix with the best anything can happen

5.a) Well if you want to bring up steroids Vitali also failed a steroid test. Most Heavyweights now take steroids and pass steroid tests because they aren't as ignorant as James Toney on passing a simple steroid tests

As mentioned previously the clearance time for steroids can be 2-5days meaning if you fight twice a year you can take steroids for all but 10days and pass a steroid test.

5b) Byrd has a better resume BUT Toney is simply the better fighter.

6. 2002 Tyson was disapointing but Tysons speed would see him land on Vitali more than he landed on Lewis because Vitali drops his guard and with Tysons speed of closing the gap and his hand speed this spells disaster.

Want to see a similar match up to Tyson-Vitali - see Dempsey-Willard - very similar styles. The fast swarming style is all wrong for a leaning back boxer type. See also Ali-Frazier for similar stylistic problems

7. Tough to say if Ruiz clinching is allowable in the rules

8. Lewis was the best but Vitali didn't prove he could beat the best BECAUSE HE LOST. Vitali proved he could compete on level terms but wasn't defensively good enough to win. Lewis was also 37 and way past his prime. Lennoxs prime was around 1999

9. Quiting against Byrd was

10. Vitali is not entitled to rematches especially against a 38yo Lewis. Lewis was fighting past his best for 1 reason. A Tyson rematch that would bring massive money.

I'm not sure why a Byrd rematch didnt happen BUT lets not pretend Byrd wouldnt fight Vitali if the money was right.

11. Well I dont want a long argument about this but I saw the cut shoot with blood after a straight right BUT that was only 1 cut Vitali had many cuts round his eye and all were down to him being open to straight rights.

12. Yes but Hatton fought more top 10 ranked fighters than Vitali - Tyszu, Castillo, Urango, Collazo. Sadly Hatton is still avoiding Junior Witter a fight Britain has wanted for the last 7 years

13.

Lewis - A Class (very few A Class this is strictly the elite)
Byrd - B Class (not elite)
Sanders - C+ CLass (Only a 2round fighter, 5round fighter in his prime)
Donald - C+ Class (Good but never top 10)
Hide - D Class (just not a fighter his chin is china and hes mentally weak and a bully who has no wins over ranked opposition)
Hoffman - D Class (average European level)

 

Again, he offered fights to Byrd and Lewis? Is there anyone out there from 2003-2004 that was better than that. State them. Vitlai could have fought Roy Jones, when Jones was his brief mandatory but Roy Jones balked.

Tua can't box a lick, and Vitlai has a great chin. Vitlai would likely beat Tua.

I disagree. Rhaman had some bad KO losses, and some ugly point’s losses. Rhaman was too up and down. He had one great win over Lewis, but overall Vitlai career was better. If you saw how Rhaman was fighting, then you have to assue Vitlai if he was helathy wins that fight.

I can agree with this.

Vitlai tested clean as a professional in his fights. Toney did not. You can not say Vitlai was on steroids as a pro. All tests say he was not.

Not sure if this is true.

Not as a heavyweight.

Vitlai makes guys miss. Tyson's gas tank hits " e " early in this fight.

The Tyson of the 00's was nothing at all like a prime Dempsey. He was far less active, and was even up with guys like Botha after 4 rounds.

Not tough to say at all. Ruiz would be an under dog vs Vitali.

Lewis was one of the all time greats. Vitlai proved he belongs and beat ATG's. Lewis did not go to sleep vs Vitlai like he did vs Mccall or Rhaman. Also, Lewis gave one his best performances in the 2nd Rhaman fight. I don’t think Lewis was “ shot “

BS. When a fighter is way ahead on the cards as Vitlai was in the Byrd fight, but losses due to an injury, he should get a re-match. Lewis said he'd give a re-match. The Klitschko vs Lewis fight was a fans type of fight. The money was on the table. Lewis didn't want to press his luck.

Agreed. But the money was right to the tune of $15,000,000.00 for Lewis.

The cut wasn't bleeding much at all when the ring doctor stopped the fight in-between rounds. Also, Lewis wasn't landing many straight rights. He was landing uppercuts and hooks.

Hatton does not belong in this thread. Lower weight fighters who move up in class always get an opportunity to fight more ranked fighters.

You are a horrible grader. Hoffaman who was the worst on the list wasn't close to class D. More like B-

Byrd, Sanders, Donald, and Hide all fought for titles, and three of them won them. Donald if the ref's were fair vs Valuev, also wins a title.

 

To be fair to Rahman, he was CHAMPION OF THE WORLD in 2001, and he didn't need Lewis to retire to claim that title. He's the man who knocked Lewis out, and I'm sure you'd be describing him in those terms if Vitali had faced him.

And if Vitali had been the one to knock out Lewis, god knows where you'd rate him. Pretty damned high I can imagine.

 

Head to head, I beleive Vitlai is a top 20 all time heavyweight.

In terms of accomplishments which can be viewed many ways, I beleive owning the all time KO%, never been floored by a punch, and dominating the score cards like no other man has ever done before him are all big time accomplishments. All of Vitlai's fighter were vs 200+ pound men. He never used a color line and fougth in the international era of boxing.

Winning a lineal title is nice. Some say Vitli had a lineal claim because he won the title vacated by the last lineal champion in the ring. Being Ring Magazine champ, and #1 across the board by ever 3rd party rating system is what matters most. I also want to point out that Vitlai turned pro at the relatively late age of 25 with some lingering kick boxing injures, and a 2nd rate trainer.

I do believe Vitlai would have won both re-matches vs Byrd and Lewis or at the very least have gone 1-1.

 

Well one things for sure, you're looking for and using all positives and no negatives along with a hell of a lot of sweet speculation. Vitali's one notable fight had him going well vs a very readsy to retire and not exactly over excited Lewis where tho he was doing well, ended up having half his face punched off. Thank god it was stopped when it was, he may never have fought again. Talk about a mess.

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