how effective would the lighter heavyweights be today?

There is a big difference between a guy like Evander Holyfield and Rocky Marciano.. Holyfield is 6'2", not 5'10". He's got the frame for bearing more muscle weight and frankly was probably genetically better suited for bulking up to begin with. He was able to ad 25 lbs of muscle, while still maintaining a reasonable degree of mobility and power. Its possible that Rocky may have been able to boost his weight from 185 to say 200, and still been effective. But it still wouldn't have been enough against a giant heavy like a Lewis or a Klit. At 220 lbs, he would have been stuck in the mud. An easy target..

 

Yes, he would lose everything he was good at, even his power.

Plus, Marciano already had a suspect back which would be wrecked by more weight.

 

Evander Holyfeild was not 6'2''. He is closer to 6' than 6'2''. and Marciano was 5'11''. Evander was always listed as 6' 1'' as a cruiserweight. I think compared to Marciano Holyfeild was actually the smaller frame. If you check the debut weights of both and compare them I think it shows Marciano was naturaly the bigger guy.

 

Didn't Marciano find out that his best fighting weight was 187 lbs?
He basically fought all his fights around that weight.

I don't think Marciano while being as tall as David Tua has the same frame to get 220 lbs on him without hurting his performance.

 

I think yes. why not? most of them were bigger but cut weight to be 15 round fighters. Joe Louis was 230lb when he KO'd Nino Valdes in an exhibition but for a real fight he would always call 199lb his best weight.

would they be better heavier? perhaps not but good enough. Is anyone better heavier?

The real question is what would todays fighters weigh and look like if they trained like Joe Louis and rocky marciano? would they be any better? would they compete?

 

Dempsey would be okay.
He had the reach to be competitive, and was quick gliding in on his feet, so he didn't have a huge disadvantage in size regarding the closing of distance to land his punches.

He had a decent frame, could pack on some pounds, fighting around the same weight as Haye does.

 

I don't think all of the guys you listed have the same kind of problems. The two most successful ones are Evander Holyfield and David Haye, both 6'3", 215 lbs, with 78" reach: Ali's measurements. They might have fought low for awhile like Ali did at the beginning, but 215 is their natural optimal weight. They aren't like the 6 foot tall guys who started at middleweight and moved up to cruiser.

Some of the modern guys you listed aren't much smaller. Adamek and Marco Huck are nearly 6'2". So their natural weight is probably around 205, which would still be fine if they fought in the 60s or even the 70s. I'd like to consider them separately since Adamek actually has a decent heavyweight record whereas Huck has had one fight at that weight and lost. Adamek doesn't have the same punching power to KO the big guys that he had at his natural weight. Above 200 pounds his record changes from 70 percent knockouts to 70 percent decisions. He can still get wins, but not against the elite and not in impressive fashion.

The 6'1" guys like Dempsey are probably right on the line at 195-200 pounds if they don't cut weight. Dempsey is a special case because he could really punch. He knocked out an old Jess Willard which shows he has comparable power to a 220 pound guy like Luis Angel Firpo who accomplished the same feat at around the same time. But there's no evidence that he knocks out A level 6'6" guys with good chins in their prime. I kind of see him doing like Frazier and Tyson with the hard punch, speed, bob and weave, style; cutting a fearsome swath through the division for a few years, burning out early, and getting beaten by the top A listers. The accumulation of punishment from that in fighting style would wear him down fast and if he doesn't retire early he'll be getting tuned up by everybody like Mike. He's actually a lot like Mike Tyson in that his knockouts come in the early rounds and if you could get into the 5th you are mostly safe. We have evidence of his KO power against Willard and Firpo, but he finished both in about 3 rounds and we don't know how well he could handle boxers that size over the distance.

 

It would enhance him if done correctly.

If he did body building to put the weight on then yes you are right it would work against him, he would be less enduranced and maybe slower (its shameful how much bodybuilding has crept its way into athletics./sports in general)

If it was done properly he would be an even harder puncher, faster, not much less endurance and more strength and a better chin.

People dont realize theres more than one type of muscular hypertrophy, and that sports science has had alot of advances since Marciano's day.

But having said that p4p he would probably be more optimal in a lighter weight division. (The best version of you isnt the best p4p version of you.)

Also you gotta remember people are bigger these days they have better nutrition consume more food etc who knows how rocky would have turned out if he ate what we ate. Its hard to compare eras there are so many complicating factors involved.

 

I don't want to be impolite but do you have any experience with strength and stamina training?

I'm no PhD in the subject but have been a pretty serious gym rat for 25 years or so. I know that probably qualifies me for nothing. However, in my experience both in training and competition, I would suggest that Marciano knew his best weight and it was in the low to mid 180's. Twenty pounds, let alone forty pounds, would have ruined him as a fighter. It would be like taking a 140 pound 5000 meter runner and having him add 25 pounds. He would go from world class to weekend warrior.

Marciano was small boned and small framed with extremely stubby limbs, narrow shoulders, not a particularly deep chest and a long, long torso. There is no frame there to build on. Furthermore, his style was based largely on stamina, relentless, hard punching. If he had slowed his work rate down he would have been easy pickings for even the smaller guys in his era.

There is no more wrong-headed suggestion on this board than that Marciano would be any bigger with "today's training and nutrition regimen". Simply not true. He was shredded and in immaculate shape... and he never starved a day in his life, feasting on rich, nutritious Italian-American fare from the mid-century.

 

It's impossible to say. Some fighters would, some wouldn't. It would depend on their frame, their body's ability to retain speed and mobility, whether or not they'd feel comfortable at the higher weight and so on. Marciano reportedly felt sluggish at 200lbs, but felt at his peak at 185. I don't know if he'd be able, or even willing, to pack on twenty or thirty pounds of muscle. Dempsey on the other hand I feel would have filled out nicely.

But honestly, muscle mass is overrated as an attribute at heavyweight. I'd much rather a fighter trains their ass off to be the best they can be, and come into the ring a little on the light side, than pack on useless muscle mass that does nothing but slow them down, make them stiff, affect their stamina or whatever, just to fulfill some arbitrary size quota.

Look at Adamek. Who would you say was the better fighter, the sharp, fast combination punching machine at cruiserweight or the sluggish and sloppy featherfist at heavy? What has that added ten or fifteen pounds (accounting for weight cutting at CW) really done for Adamek as a fighter?

Now look at Haye. Enters the ring against Chisora at 210lbs (his in-ring weight at cruiser) and does the business on his larger but far sloppier foe. Look at Huck. Another 210lber who pounds the crap out of Povetkin because he isn't an immobile tub of meat, and hasn't sacrificed his attributes at the altar of mass.

One of the troubles with the modern heavyweight division is that normal sized heavyweights, perhaps out of a misguided belief that it allows them to compete with the naturally larger men, are packing too much weight. For some it's too much muscle, for others too much fat. Either way, they're not in peak condition. Haye showed that a smaller fighter who's fast, athletic and willing to put the work in at the gym can triumph over a heavier, but ultimately less talented, and less well conditioned fighter in Chisora. Chambers showed that a far talented smaller fighter could quite handily beat a much larger foe in Dimitrenko.

Anyway, I'm digressing slightly. My point is that a smaller fighter shouldn't feel pressured into adding muscle weight unless he feels it will be beneficial to him in some way. If it improves them as a fighter then I'm all for it, but the impact on performance should always be the main thing, not the end result on the scales.

No, why should that follow? Byrd was an extremely skilled and tricky fighter who specialised in fighting larger, stronger fighters and clowning them to decisions. A fighter like Young might have emulated his success, but it doesn't follow that a come forward brawler like Dempsey or Marciano would.