how effective would the lighter heavyweights be today?

I think Dempsey had the height, the frame width and the bodytype to add a decent amount of muscle mass to his 187lbs without becoming an overweight plodder. Provided he still trains for speed and explosivity then he could potentially become a very fearsome fighter. Not sure if he'd compete in the heavyweight division though. I think he'd be bang on the mark for Cruiserweight.

 

Great post Absolutely! :good

Adamek should weigh in no more than 210-15, just like Haye did in his best heavyweight showings.

 

Haye versus Chisora is a bad example. Haye isn't just a far better fighter, he's also the bigger man. Haye is 6'3" with 78 inch reach and Chisora is 6'1.5" with a 74 inch reach. Big difference between fighting a Chisora who weighs 245 pounds and a 6'6" Klitschko who is naturally 245 pounds.

As for Adamek, you attribute his lack of power to his extra weight and not to the fact that he's fighting opponents thirty or forty pounds heavier? It's true that when he was a Cruiser he got 70 percent KOs and now that he's a heavy he gets 70 percent decisions, but that's just what happens when you step up in competition. Adamek is 6' 1.5" with a 75" reach. He's as big as Chisora, and he's got a frame that can handle a few extra pounds. Chisora should think about slimming down to Adamek's weight and getting some speed back. Marco Huck is the same size and I wouldn't say he's as successful as either man. He's had one fight against a heavy and he lost. It's too early to hold him up as an example.

 

Yes I do have experience.

Strength training INCREASES endurance.

You under estimate how easy it is to spread 40lbs of mucle over a whole body.

The width of shoulders and length of limbs dosnt limit muscular growth in any significant way at these low levels.

I think he was at a near optimal weight as well and 40lbs is too much too steep.

He would have definitely become a harder faster puncher with the RIGHT strength training. (Again too many people gain size the WRONG way)

I agree his endurance would have suffered. He would have to become a different type of fighter. A scaled down tommy morrison comes to mind with a good chin. It is possible to have reasonable cardio and a large muscle mass, fighters like Tyson can do it.

 

Haye and Chambers are/were better because they were far more skilled. Chisora throws Trevor Berbick round, pushed punches. Haye throws sharp, straight, fast, leveraged punches that were getting inside Chisora's attempts. Dimitrenko is just tall and that's it. Chambers was in a different league.

Size does not overcome all...

 

At the risk of stating the obvious, some of the smaller heavyweights would do better than others. The genuinely great ones would be better able to overcome size disparity, and stylistic considerations would also play a big part. The all time finishers would be the most sucessful.

Some fighters who proved in the ring that they would be effective the bigger modern heavyweights include:

Jack Johnson
Sam Langford
Jack Dempsey
Jack Sharkey
Joe Louis
Archie Moore

Could they bulk up today?

Absolutely.

What is less certain is whether it would make them better.

 

To an extent it does. But a completely different style of strength training that that which adds a lot of weight and mass.

Low levels? We are talking about 23% increase of weight. That is not low. I don't see where a guy with such a small frame is going to hide this mass and still be effective as a whole. [/QUOTE]

But he was the best type of fighter he could be given his natural gifts. Making into a different style fighter would be making him into a lesser fighter. Against his better opposition (which was limited to the last portion of his career) he was largely an attrition slugger who relied on stamina and output. Slow him down, decrease his mobility and output and he becomes nothing more than a sitting duck with decent one punch power. There are tons of fighters like that. Everyone of his opponents remarked no so much on Marciano's power but his relentless attack, that he never stopped and ultimately overwhelmed any defense. Remold him at even 20 pounds more and this ability disappears.

 

Chisora had just come off a win against Helenius and having given Vitali one of his toughest fights in years. He was considered, if not the most skilled fighter around, certainly one of the toughest. I'd say he's a pretty good example to prove my point, which is that Chisora represented the squat muscled up "true heavy" of the division, whilst a fighter like Haye was still considered a Cruiserweight with all the baggage that term carries. Haye ended up destroying him with ease, a feat which neither Helenius nor Vitali were able to achieve. His 210lbs were certainly sufficient enough to get the job done. Whether he was the bigger man or not (and I'd wager that Paul Williams had much the same dimensions, and perhaps a longer reach) he was outweighed by over thirty pounds by a man who'd withstood the best the superheavyweight power punchers of the division could throw at him.

Adamek to my eyes is a slower and sloppier fighter today than he was at Cruiserweight. That might be partly to do with age, partly to do with ring wear or partly to do with a change of style to compete with larger and more powerful men, but he's definitely not as good a fighter as he was. This was most evident against Aguileira, I think, a very average, not especially tough and relatively small heavyweight whom Adamek failed to knock out. He was also clearly less adept at putting his punches together when he caught Walker against the ropes, slapping with his shots on gloves, top of head etc. Compare that to the Banks fight where he caught Banks in a very similar situation but executed a brutal and swift finish.

I understand that he's not going to get knockouts against the Arreolas and the Grants and even the McBrides of the division, but the extent to which his power has suffered cannot be explained away by size alone. He was a killer puncher at Cruiserweight, and like I said above, that's not as massive a gulf as people think.

 

I'm perfectly aware that size does not overcome all. That was precisely my point.

Chisora, on paper, had certain advantages against Haye that were dependent upon his stockiness and bulk. The fight proved that those advantages were all just smoke. Haye not only had the skills to overcome Chisora's brute strength, but the power to knock him out as well.

The idea that a fighter can "bulk up" and this somehow makes them a better fighter is such nonsense, yet still gets bandied about by fans as if it's a gospel truth. I'm not against strength training per se; in fact I think it's an integral part of training. Rather, I'm against the idea of adding muscle mass willy nilly and somehow hoping it'll lead to magical gains as a result.

A skilled and athletic 210lbs fighter can potentially beat all but the best superheavyweights. The limit might be even lower than that, I don't know. Of course there is a limit, a point where lack of size genuinely becomes a problem, but I don't think Cruiserweight is it.

 

""To an extent it does. But a completely different style of strength training that that which adds a lot of weight and mass.""



Not true, see I knew id catch you out, literally low reps high weight increases endurance. Do you know how?




""Low levels? We are talking about 23% increase of weight. That is not low. I don't see where a guy with such a small frame is going to hide this mass and still be effective as a whole. [/quote]""




Low levels compared to bodybuilding which is the only time "maxing out your skeletal frame" is even possible, which is why I made that comparison.







""But he was the best type of fighter he could be given his natural gifts. Making into a different style fighter would be making him into a lesser fighter. Against his better opposition (which was limited to the last portion of his career) he was largely an attrition slugger who relied on stamina and output. Slow him down, decrease his mobility and output and he becomes nothing more than a sitting duck with decent one punch power. There are tons of fighters like that. Everyone of his opponents remarked no so much on Marciano's power but his relentless attack, that he never stopped and ultimately overwhelmed any defense. Remold him at even 20 pounds more and this ability disappears.""





I agree theres a good chance he was at his best at his weight. Im not arguing against you on this one just throwing an argument at you to see what your response will be....

....A guy like Tyson can hold huge amounts of muscle for his short stature, and still have good cardio and power. Why not rocky? Why would 20lbs make such a difference? There are many other examples not just Tyson, guys with alot of muscle mass that still have decent cardio.

 

Against the Klits all of them would be dominated. The like Corbett and Fitz wouldn't even be top light heavies or crusers today, boxing moved on too much

Charles and Walcott fought in a golden era of skill so could outhustle less skilled big men, but against the Klits? No chance.

Dempsey no chance against the Klits, wins some and loses some against the HW top 30

 

I'm not sure why the posters on this forum who for the most part haven't boxed think they know better than boxers who bulked up or trainers who had them bulk up

 

Alot of trainers and fighters are thick. Plain and simple.


It makes me cringe to hear the term bulking up when used in the context of sports or athletics.


Bulking up which is what bodybuilders do, it WILL absolutely make you slower, and less enduranced. Its utterly insane to "bulk up" if you are a boxer.


You can put on weight the right way though. Its clear not many people know how or what im talking about.

 

You caught me? Really? The argument for low reps/high weights versus high reps/low weight for endurance have bounced back and forth to extremes over the last few decades. I should know because I'm old and have spent too many hours of my life in gyms. But seriously, the experts used to say the opposite of what they say now, and they probably will again.

All I know is that I'm Rocky's height with longer limbs and bigger frame and would never box at 210-220 (In the past I boxed between 160 and 180). That's just me. Maybe he is just some physical freak when he reaches bowling ball proportions. Somehow I doubt it.

Again, I don't have a degree in this stuff, just personal experience from 25 years of going to the gym almost daily, and reading all the articles and trends (they are always changing so don't tell me the latest and greatest is going to be seen as such in 10 years).

The Morrison comparison you made is all wrong from even a physical perspective. Firstly, Morrison was much bigger framed, a wide body with height at 6 foot 2 and respectable limb length at 77" reach. Secondly, he was a major roider. Thirdly, Marciano would never go for the pec implants.

OK, are we off topic enough yet?

 

not sure if the rock could have carried another 40 pounds welll...Dempsey could have..given his body deminsons.