How exactly does Tyson beat Ali...?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Glass City Cobra, Jul 23, 2024.


Who wins?

  1. Ali KO

    10.7%
  2. Ali TKO

    44.6%
  3. Ali UD

    14.3%
  4. Ali SD

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Draw

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Tyson KO

    8.9%
  7. Tyson TKO

    14.3%
  8. Tyson UD

    5.4%
  9. Tyson SD

    1.8%
  1. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King

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    Common arguments:

    1) Tyson was so intimidating and applied crazy pressure: First of all, Ali faced several scary and intimidating fighters such as Frazier, Lyle, or Liston to name a few (and according to Tyson himself, he was a "boy scout" compared to Liston). Second, Ali fought under the pressure of having to avenge losses in rematches (something Tyson never did) and fought plenty of guys who had powerful auras applying pressure. I would also argue that the reversal could happen: Ali winning the psychological game getting in Tyson's head. Ali had real confidence and knew how to get under people's skin.

    2) Tyson could cut off the ring and get past the jab: Tyson struggled to get past the jab of Pinklon Thomas for 5 rounds. He failed to cut off the ring in both James Tillis and Tony Tucker (both fights occuring when Tyson was in his mythical "prime"). Let's not forget Douglas smacking Tyson's head around like a speed bag with his jab either, and his lateral movement was very good too. I'm not saying Ali just easily dances circles around Tyson at will, but what I am saying is there's plenty of footage of Tyson failing to cut off the ring of men with inferior footwork to Ali.

    3) Tyson had brutal body punches: Yes, he did. If you want to wince, watch the first Ali vs Chuvalo fight. Or watch the Foreman fight where Ali had to endure some incredibly painful body shots. I don't see this being a big enough of an x factor to tip the scales in Tyson's favor when Ali had such an iron will and an incredibly tough mdi section.

    4) Tyson's head movement and high pressure style neutralizes the stick and move style: They aren't exactly the same, but Frazier has very good head movement as well. Ali won 2/3 of those fights and could time Frazier on the outside before he got close. You could actually argue Frazier did multiple things better than Tyson, including fighting on the inside and fighting out of the clinch. Tyson often just stood there clueless once he got inside and was tied up more times than a pair of sneakers. Ali also had amazing head movement and could give Tyson trouble landing clean head shots.

    5) Tyson had a hell of a hook that was both fast and powerful. Ali was weak to hooks: This is a decent argument actually. Out of all the guys from different eras who had great hooks, Tyson's could definitely give Ali problems. The main problem is that A) You have to time Ali with the hook. You can't just spam them. Frazier and Cooper waited for just the right moment when Ali's guard was down and landed with pinpoint accuracy and B) As we saw with Tua vs Lewis, simply having a good hook isn't enough. Tyson still has to deal with points 1-4 above.

    6) Tyson never won a fight where he was losing or badly hurt: This is a huge factor that is often downplayed or ignored. I've seen some arguments such as "It's better to never be down or behind in the first place" or "you're penalizing Tyson for not struggling with his competition". These are nonsensical arguments. No one is penalizing Tyson for simply pointing out he failed to do what so many greats did, which is winning a fight where it looks as if he might lose. Tyson does have some impressive displays of toughness and willpower such as the Ruddock or Ribalta fights, but those are the exception. Most of the time he is either steamrolling through his opponents, or he's the one getting steamrolled. Ali has multiple highlight reels where he has to dig deep to win enduring busted ribs, broken jaws, swollen hands, being behind on the cards, getting off the floor to win, etc. Ali's willpower was in another class.

    7) Ali had superior stamina and a higher late round work rate. Tyson was a fast starter, but fought at a slower rate past the 7th round. These are simply facts. Occasionally Tyson could surprise you with a sudden burst of energy out of nowhere such as when he managed to stop Ribalta, but again this is the exception. Ali not only had a higher work rate late in fights, he was also used to 15 round bouts. Ali was known for getting his "second wind" and taking over a round such as his final round rally against Norton in the second fight, or even late in his career in the 15th against Shavers.


    Closing thoughts: I am not saying Ali wins for sure, or that Tyson has no chance. What I am saying is when I think about all the factors and arguments, this is actually an uphill battle for Tyson. It's very unlikely he wins by a clean KO given Ali's elusiveness, iron jaw, and survival skills. Tyson would probably need to win a decision and at best, he could possibly win by stoppage TKO. Ali was busier with a higher work rate, was just as fast, could take body shots as well as anyone, and could probably get inside Tyson's head. Unless Tyson manages to force a stoppage early, I don't see him winning. He never dug deep to win a huge fight against an opponent of this class.
     
  2. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Tyson can't beat Ali,,Ali's is too mentally tough.
     
  3. Jakub79

    Jakub79 Active Member Full Member

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    I think your analysis is very good, with a lot of interesting and right observations. I left Tyson aside because I think Ali made too many mistakes and relied too much on reflexes at a young age and was too often passive at an older age that someone like prime Tyson would take advantage of. but your comments are very accurate. The only reservation I have is that Tyson always had to lead to win the fight. That's what history says, but it doesn't mean much. In the fight with Douglas, being really extremely lethargic and static, he lost every round and finally put Buster down for 14 seconds. The fight with Botha was also weak, but Tyson, who was quite patient, finally got Frans. Of course, in the same form as with Buster and Botha, Tyson would be a punching bag for Ali. I'm just talking about breaking the pattern. Tyson didn't have to dominate from the beginning to be dangerous until the end. Regards
     
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  4. Marvelous_Iron

    Marvelous_Iron Active Member Full Member

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    Unlike Frazier, Tyson was a lot faster and had it in both hands, imagine how Foreman was unloading body shots in the rumble but Tyson could actually throw really close/tight hooks and uppercuts at a speed Foreman didn't possess in his wildest dreams

    72 onwards 88 Tyson smokes him, there's also a good chance the Ali that got floored by Cooper was too green and the entirety of North America's smelling salts wouldn't wake him up after tasting Tyson

    Ali took some big shots, but in none of his fights was he facing as many big shots from both hands with as much speed as Tyson would be throwing, Foreman was relatively slow and not as accurate as Tyson
     
  5. RockyJim

    RockyJim Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Tyson was a terrific 6 round fighter...BUT...if you didn't fall within 6 rounds...he got discouraged and started to fall apart...he became a different fighter. Ali would discouraged Tyson very quickly. Tyson is now looked upon as a bully...who when things don't go his way...he folds up. He wasn't mentally tough...as others have said...Tyson never came from behind to win a fight...he never walked thru the fire to win a fight...and he never got up off the deck to win that fight! the fight. 1964-1967 Ali gets into his head...and he stays there! Tyson's fast...he hits hard...yeah....but when you fold up and fall apart all that other stuff doesn't mean a thing...
     
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  6. PRW94

    PRW94 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    This. Prime Tyson may have been mature as far as boxing skills but emotionally he was still a kid. Ali would get inside his head in unimaginable ways.

    One match for all the marbles Ali decisions him and beats him up.

    A multi fight series though … Ali doesn’t go undefeated.
     
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  7. Ney

    Ney Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    It’s a big mistake to write Tyson off in this fight (& I picked Ali by late stoppage). He has Frazier’s short, precise punches, Foreman’s power, & Louis’ handspeed (I approximate of course but you see my point). Any fighter who relies on leaning back to avoid punches is in mortal danger, Ali included.

    In important ways, Tyson is a suped-up Frazier. Bigger punch, better power distribution, more explosive, at least as good a finisher. He won’t miss wide like Liston, or punch ineffectively, like Foreman. But in crucial areas, he falls down. It is very valid to say he didn’t win from behind or overcome a lot of adversity. It is a hard, frustrating thing to be in the ring with prime Ali. Frazier was vastly Tyson’s superior in stamina, mental stability, & heart. He was simply immune to the struggle. Tyson is anything but & that’s why I picked Ali to get the better of him mentally & physically - but I would hesitate to put money on it. When I see Ali leaning straight back, or getting buzzed by Henry Cooper…it’s a dangerous fight.

    I agree with whoever said Tyson wrecks Ali 1972-onward, though that’s not really fair of course. 1967 Ali dominates 1991 or 1995 Tyson, too.
     
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  8. PRW94

    PRW94 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I would put the cutoff to where things switch dramatically Tyson's way to Manila, or maybe between Zaire and Manila.

    I know Ali was already starting to get older but IMO Manila did just what Joe Frazier proudly crowed that it did ... he came out of it irrevocably damaged goods, he was never really the same afterward.

    And on a given night Mike Tyson would be a dangerous fight for any heavyweight who's ever stepped into the ring for a bout in recorded history, bare knuckle or Marquis of Queensbury rules.
     
  9. Ney

    Ney Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I’d confidently bet on Tyson against the Ali of the Norton & Foreman fights, personally.
     
  10. PRW94

    PRW94 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I wouldn't, LOL, but I will repeat, Mike Tyson could on a given night beat any heavyweight who's ever lived. I don't think that makes him the GOAT. (He's ninth on my own personal ATG list.)
     
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  11. Ney

    Ney Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I’d give him very little chance against prime Foreman. But could I give Tyson 0% chance? Probably not, so I agree with you.
     
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  12. Anubis

    Anubis Boxing Addict

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    See Ali-Patterson I. Floyd was stated by Henry Cooper to have even faster hands than Ali, but you simply can't be competitive against a guy you can't get close enough to hit to any part of the body, and even Patterson's gazelle punch barely grazed Muhammad's torso.

    That's Ali-Tyson in a nutshell. I also think that's the Frazier of Ellis I versus late 1960's Ali. Joe simply wouldn't be able to get close enough to score to the body with his hook, and in all cases, there's Muhammad's clinching if any of them did somehow get physically close. (Ditto Marciano and probably Louis.)

    Here's the difference between Frazier, Patterson and then Tyson. Joe and Floyd never gave up. Mike would. Tyson was frustrated by Bonecrusher's clinching, and Larry Holmes in a hopeless situation even had transient success with his clinching of Mike.

    Best Tyson can do is go the Championship Distance on his feet the whole way and lose on all three cards by identical scores of 150-135.

    When peak Ali did not want a sub six footer to hit him, that guy wasn't able to hit him.

    Folley managed to win two of the first three rounds over the GOAT, but Zora was a brilliant boxer with obscene experience and also stood 6'1" with a 77 inch reach, so he had height and reach Patterson and Tyson did not. Folley was also able to get Muhammad off his toes. Mike wouldn't.

    Getting to peak Ali meant two things. Being able to come over the top with the overhand right, and having the height and reach to connect with it. Norton was able to surprise Muhammad with it in their first bout, and interestingly, I think Max Baer would have the best chance at decking a peak Ali. (At 6'2-1/2" with an 81 inch reach, the Larruper had an excellent overhand right, something Liston simply couldn't develop for Lewiston.)


    Again, see Ali-Patterson I. Floyd was actually taller than Mike with an identical reach, and Tyson did not share the gazelle punch.
     
  13. dmt

    dmt Hardest hitting hw ever Full Member

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    I agree that Ali beats Tyson.

    However, Tyson is the only heavyweight in history who comes close to the 25 year old peak Ali in terms of both handspeed and footspeed. Patterson doesn't count since he was too small and fragile chinned.

    Ali had enormous speed advantages over everyone he faced in the 60's. Tyson comes close to his speed. So i don't think the early rounds would be easy for Ali. I think Tyson's speed and fast combinations would hurt Ali early but he is cagey and will survive. Ali will break Tyson down later in the fight and either win by late stoppage or a decision.

    With regards to taking 5 rounds to get to Thomas, this was a motivated Thomas. I don't think we could expect even a master ring cutter like Frazier to stop Thomas in 2. Thomas had a ramrod jab and plenty of skill and it took a while for Tyson to get to him but he did.

    As far as Tucker is concerned, Tucker was in full survival mode. Tyson dominated the last 10 rounds of the fight. I don't think Ali would fight just to survive so ironically Tyson will have a better chance to land cleanly on Ali than he did vs Tucker.

    Ultimately i think Ali beats him but neither guy ever faced someone as fast as the other. These are the two quickest heavies that ever lived. Period. They will give each other a lot of trouble.
     
  14. Ney

    Ney Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Does Tyson come in with a bad back, too?
     
  15. PRW94

    PRW94 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Absolute peak, prime, pre-Tokyo and Robin Givens and prison Tyson was such a force of nature that IMO he is what you see when you flip to “puncher’s chance” in Webster’s unabridged. I can find a scenario, again, for him to defeat anyone on a given night. But you will note that I didn’t use the words “He would.”