How faded was JCC against Whitaker?

He was past his best in terms of reflexes and pace, and was definitely too high in weight class. He was just never meant to be 143. I would say he was about 3 years past his prime. Certainly not shot just too heavy a weight class and past his absolute prime years. You don't get away with those disadvantages against Whitaker. Although he should be applauded for his effort in getting a draw.

 

I think by this point the week long beer parties and disregard for nutrition along with all the wars had clearly caught up to JCC. His reflexes were clearly off and he was so uncordinated compared to the relentless efficient demon who savaged Rosario.

But I think the most revealing evidence that he was past his prime is the fact that he seemed winded after the fourth round. Sure he probably threw too many wild punches trying to make a dent early but it's hard to imagine a prime Chavez shooting his wad so early. Maybe the added weight had something to do with it but I'm not sure.

Who knows how the fight transpires in their prime. I don't think it's inconceiveable that an absolutely peak Chavez could turn the decision in his favor. Afterall Whitaker probably deserved to win by 116-112ish. So Chavez would only need to swing two rounds to make it a legit draw or 3 rounds to nick a win.

Who know?

 

At the time he wasn't considered anywhere near being post-peak.

That's a retrospective viewpoint.

 

And at the time there were those who thought Ali had a chance against Holmes. Those of us who had been watching JCC since pre-Mario Martinez suspected he was reaching too far, had gone on too long and was slipping. Hell, how long is a fighter supposed to hold his peak? And there was this aura of invincibility about the guy which was further manifested in the press.

However, as someone pointed out above, the partying, as well as the fights, were starting to take their toll. And most annoyingly, he had become a prima donna, pampered little *****, who expected everything to constantly go his way.

And it speaks volumes that a Chavez in this state was able to secure a draw against a larger ATG who was indeed peaking.

 

I, too, had been watching him for quite some time.

I don't remember thinking, reading or hearing anything going into that fight about him being on the decline.

As often happens when fighters get old overnight, it occurs on a night when that fighter is in against a very difficult opponent style-wise, or a very gifted opponent or -- in this case -- both.

And it says volumes about the judges that he got a gift draw, much more than it says anything about a Chavez who got handily out-boxed and out-foxed.

 

Chavez' reach exceeded his grasp. Too much weight, too many fights and too soft a life for him to maintain the excellence of the mid and late 80's.

Sure, the mindless trumpeters of the press, the Farhood's and Katz's of the world who never sniffed the inside of a gym, were pushing for the 100-0 record and the ordaining of boxing's new biggest cashcow in the shadow of Tyson's ignominious absence. However, plenty of folks I knew considered Whitaker in 93 and fighting at 143, way too much for that version of Chavez.

One must really marvel that this whisper of a former great was still able to battle to a draw.

 

agreed. no offense to the posters who give credit to chavez in getting even a draw in such a fight but he didn't. chavez earned 3-4 rounds at most in that fight. 4 if you're really generous to punching at the air and hearing mexican chants. what he deserves derision for is his post fight interview and subsequent bull**** where he refused to admit he got beat by the better fighter thoroughly and embarassingly at times. frankly, i think based on styles a peak whitaker at 135 beats chavez in a closer fight and at 147 ALWAYS peaks chavez. basically, the only way chavez wins is if pea starves himself to 130 and a young chavez gets his shot there

 

I think we were watching a very good but not the best version of Chavez. It would not have mattered. Short of bad judging Whitaker would still have won.

 

I'm glad we at least agree that his draw was a rather monumental accomplishment of a faded great versus another great. Cheers.

 

Just to be clear I never said Chavez deserved a draw or deserves credit for winning a draw. It was one of the worst decisions of all time and it should be rightfully condemned. I agree that Chavez probably won only four rounds.

I'm only saying that a peak Chavez, younger, at a more suitable weight could very conceiveably win an additional two rounds to make the fight a legitimate draw or an additional three rounds to win the fight.

 

He looked like the same JC Chavez to me- a methodical puncher who slowly ground you down into hamburger with horrible body blows that brought down your guard and then headshots that puffed, sliced and bled you.

But it's for this "methodical puncher" reason that I always believed that JCC never could and would never beat Pernell Whitaker. In order to grind you down JCC had to be able to nail you clean and often. And doing that to a 135 lb Whitaker was just about impossible. Chavez didn't have the speed nor the ability to penetrate Pernell's airtight defense at that weight. What did JCC bring to the table at 135 that would have made a difference? It would just be a slightly better version of Chavez fighting a MUCH better version of Whitaker. I see the same problems existing for Chavez and thus, the same result, perhaps even more lopsided.

You could make an argument that JCC was a tad past his best (only a tad based upon what I saw). But then again I never believed that Pernell was at his best at welter either. When he arose in weight, even at his best, he began to get hit with shots that used to come nowhere near him at lightweight. The extra weight seemed to dull his defensive reflexes noticeably. I actually felt that JCC's best chance of beating PW was at welter, where Pea was much more hittable. No methodical puncher is going to grind down the 135 pound Whitaker.

 

Pea beats him at any weight. He was still seen as prime at the time. He got schooled by a superior fighter.

 

Watching Chavez's fights with Haugen and Alli just prior to Whitaker, I had felt he lacked some of the usual fire and intensity he'd shown in previous fights, but at the same time, the power and accuracy of his punching was the best I'd ever seen from him. You can take from that what you will.

I certainly think it's very reasonable to suggest that I guy that was over 30 and had had 70 or so fights might be slowing down. But at the same time, I think anyone arguing that he was more than just "slightly" or "beginning" to fade is being a bit revisionist and unfair to Pea.

 

Actually, the Camacho fight was almost a full year earlier, with several fights in between.

True, but this could also suggest that his decline started after, and perhaps even as a result of, the Whitaker fight.