How far Tyson would have gotten

A bunch of non-great heavies (ewps, one grandpa heavy who was great) who would have been wiped out in the 60s and 70s even worse than they were in their day and age.

That said, prime Mike was a terrifically savage monster that certainly ran with Liston and Foreman for intimidation. He was a mercurial puncher with freeky hand speed, and his defense was nothing to sneeze at.

Mike also have a very good (if not great) chin.

I'm not sure having a better chin has anything to do with championship heart. Whether it does or doesn't, Mike didn't have the kind of heart Louis, Dempsey, Holmes, Ali, Frazier, Holyfield, and Foreman did. So to me the question is what if Mike had that kind of heart, and my answer to that would be: he might have been the Greatest.

 

Well I’m sort of the boss man so I’ll have to admonish myself!!

 

I think Tyson’s career was groomed in such a way, a way that had never been done before, that it really wouldn’t have mattered if he had a bad chin. He was that good anyway, and his opponents before Douglas were often severely handicapped.

He would have got all the way to Douglas anyway. Nobody really got near his chin with enough regularity to make a difference.

Tyson was was the golden egg. The whole of TV, the whole of boxing needed him to be an impressive champion. So he really got the best of everything and had incredible advantages over everybody he fought until Douglas.

Compared to Tyson his opponents were always horribly disadvantaged.

There were tests he had to come through. I think Tillis, Ribalta were real coming of age fights he had to win. Apart from that it was mostly target practice.

There was cancellations that favoured Tyson. A lot of I’ll prepared fighters really.

That Tyson did turn out to have a chin kept him in that fight with Douglas and Lewis for as long as he lasted. It gave him some mileage afterwards. But listen to mike now. He says his career was over in 1990. Money kept it going longer. He got a lot of breaks.

No Ali fought more rounds in the last few months than Frazier had. 15 with Bonavena 2 with Quarry.

 

The chin was certainly a factor, but when he was focused, he was very elusive; slipping punches on his way in as part of his setup. A weak chin would hurt him if he were hit cleanly, but - again, in his focused youth - the reflexes and skills he had early on would have kept him safe.

For a while, at least ...

 

He hadn't been off 3 years?? He didnt lose that time??? ...1967-1970 never happened? ...look they're all excellent to me there isn't too many fighters I dont care for...I was making a point anyone can smash apart someone's career

 

Its like they say, you can’t go into the rain without getting wet, but Tyson only got a bit wet didn’t he? Take those two examples you used, Bruno and Tucker, both incidents were single shots. Let’s suppose Tyson was just as good, only he couldn’t take a punch at all. He still might actually survive those punches because they were single shots. When everything is equal it is quite rare to take a top level guy out with one punch - unless it’s their best punch. I know Bruno inside out. Grew up watching each of his fights. Let me tell you, He hit other guys a lot harder than he was able to hit Tyson because Tyson was so good. The better the guy is the harder it is to hit them.

So fast. Mike had a second on bruno. That extra second puts the target just beyond the perfect spot to land right on the money each time.

So if you are good enough, a fighter can look like he can live with monster punchers. But he’s not really swapping full impact blows with that monster. He’s good enough to look like he can. And in reality Tyson is the only one landing good shots.

By the time he get Douglas, Tyson is taking return full impact blows in succession. He’s fighting a guy in that fight who fought on the last 3 cards Tyson had and busters recent opponents on paper were pretty good. McCall, Berbick and Mike Williams were good enough to fight the last three men Tyson fought, and in meeting them Douglas had clocked up 27 meaningful rounds over the time Tyson and fought just 7 mostly one way traffic rounds.

This is why matchmaking and career timing is a key factor in assessing champions.

 

Going into their fight, Since March 1970 Ali fought twice and Frazier fought once. Frazier fought one and a half rounds with Bob Foster. Ali clocked up 17 championship level rounds with two great heavyweight contenders.

Yes Ali previously took 3 years out. But the 17 rounds with Quarry and Bonavena were actually better results than Frazier got against them. Don’t forget, Frazier was only fighting 2 times a year himself.

If Larry Holmes improved on the results Tyson had scored over two of his better opponents up to that time after his two year layoff I doubt anybody would mention larrys time away.

29 year old Ali had fresh wins, was firing on all cylinders and unbeaten. He was not dug up.

 

Exceptional.

He decimated a prime Trevor Berbick who just defeated a prime Pinklon Thomas , previously defeated an undefeated Greg Page and went a very tough fifteen with a prime Larry Holmes. Berbick was a 6' 2" , 220 puns block of granite, strong as an ox, unorthodox, well conditioned and very tough.

He dominated a prime Smith who had just knocked out Tim Witherspoon in a round and previously flattened a then undefeated Frank Bruno. Smith was a 6' 4" murderous punching , super strong and tough monster at the top of his game.

He crushed Pinklon Thomas, still in his own prime. Thomas was a very good fighter, big, strong and talented. No one ever remotely did anything like that to Thomas before.

He dominated a huge and talented and prime Tony Tucker .. Tucker, a former amateur star, was terrific, game , ready but dominated.

He dismantled former amateur star Tyrell Briggs, a huge, very talented fighter.

He iced former champ Holmes .. yes Holmes was older and inactive but Tyson crushed him like no one ever did before or after.

He flattened former champ Tony Tubbs, another very talented ex champ still in his athletic prime.

He destroyed Spinks ..

Every one of these guys was very big, strong and talented. Every one had been an former amateur star or a former world champion. Most were both .. all but Holmes were still at or near their own primes ..

I don't think anyone ever fought better title opposition .. certainly not Johnson, Dempsey , Marciano or even Louis with his 25 defenses .. the only one close was Ali and if you cheery pick the best of his two title reigns it is still very questionable .. to denigrate these men is pure revisionism .. Tyson went on the become a despicable human being for a very long time and threw away a lot of his potential but for two years, 86 - 88, he was a legitimately devastating fighter and he proved it in the ring ...

 

Awful lot of excuses to step around the FACTS and only FACTS that matter ...that ALI was intact off for 3 years..but go ahead with your excuses it's cute ..keep twisting the narrative

 

I absolutely agree Tyson was the best heavyweight in the world at that time. He was certainly the best prepared heavyweight on the planet because he had the whole division on hold waiting for a crack at him. He remained busy whilst his challengers were unable to keep sharp fighting each other. If Tubbs fought Holmes the winner would have been better prepared to face Tyson. Or Thomas v Biggs. Or Bruno v Spinks etc etc.

good win.
Berbick had two fights that year. One world class. Tyson fought 12 times already that year. Perhaps one was a also a world class opponent but who has had the best preparation? The guy who had 2 fights or the guy with 12 fights?

Smith knows he’s lost to marvis Frazier who Tyson beat in one round. I guess that was a comforting thought for Tyson. What an edge to have. Smith had faced 4 opponents in the last 12 months. 3 were world class and he had lost one of them.

it only looks good on paper if you don’t care what Thomas was fighting.
Thomas had fought on the undercard of Tyson’s last two fights but he had not won a fight against a rated fighter for two whole years. Pinklon was 3-1 Over a period where Tyson had 26 fights and beaten 3 world class opponents.

Tucker did what he could. Which is what Mitch green did.He wasn’t selected to win either Was he? The IBF upgraded a USBA title fight to a IBF vacancy because they wanted to sacrifice somebody to Mile Tyson. They wanted Tyson sanctioning fees. That’s all the Douglas v Tucker fight was about. They were not ready for anything beyond that level.

Biggs has fought twice that year. His best opponent was a faded David Bey who lost 3 of his last four fights. Over the same time Tyson had beat 2 reigning world champions and one ex champ. I guess Tyson has the edge again.

impossible odds for Larry to win that fight.

impossible odds for Tubbs to win that fight and he knew it. Tubbs trainer walked out on him because Tony would not train. Tubbs knew he had not fought serious opposition for years. So Tubbs was offered a bonus to get in shape and still he wouldn’t train. That’s unprecedented in the history of sport.

Since Spinks became a heavyweight Tyson had fought 26 times to Michaels 4 fights. Tyson had won 7 championship fights and beat 6 heavyweight champions. Spinks had only fought one. Since Spinks was last in a ring Tyson had fought 4 times. That’s a terrible disadvantage.

 

@choklab : Tyson did fight more frequently, including his buildup to the title, than almost any other champ! Are you really that dump playing that reference card, or going for another choklab troll production?

Ok! Berbick was Tysons best win, because he got that coin flip decision, but the rest was out of place.

 

I didn't think the Berbick-Holmes fight was very tough. Berbick mostly got his face smacked by heavy, nasty, loud jabs and cracking rights.

Berbick did get to Holmes a bit psychologically early on, but he didn't win even five rounds in that fight imo. Holmes was far more accurate, effective, and his ring generalship was on fine display. He just couldn't figure TB's style out enough to knock him out, couldn't get a lot of flush punches in. Berbick was tricky. Ask Page.

 

Tyson with no chin ? Bruno sparks him out with that hook ! Anyone with less than concrete chops would get taken out

 

Imdisagree

Berbick was a good win because he just defeated Pinklon Thomas but the same Thomas, who was only 29 and who only one year earlier was touted by many as the best heavyweight in the world and an undefeated champion was not a huge win for Tyson ? Disagree. What inside info do you have that specifically details his dramatic downfall from top heavyweight to has been in fourteen months ? Your inactivity argument is faulty. The Berbick fight was extremely close and could have gone either way .. that was a world class fight for Thomas .. he then had three tune ups to stay active. Weak argument.

Bonecrusher: Styles make fights and I hope you know this so comparing either fighters wins over Marvis is irreverent. What is relevant is that three months before dighting Tyson Smith had the biggest win of his career against Witherspoon. Bonecrusher was pumped, well trained but still thrashed by Tyson.

Tucker: Tony Tucker was a former outstanding amateur heavyweight who fought and defeated the best amateur fighters from all over the world before becoming a pro. He was gigantic, young (29) , fit, had an amazing chin, could box and punch. He defeated James Broad and stopped Buster Douglas prior to fighting Tyson .. what exactly qualifies as a title opponent if this guy does not ? What to gone me five or six of Louis opponents who better qualify ? How about Ali's ? You think a Mildenberger, a Chuvalo, a Terrell, a 35 year old Folley, a Lyle or Shavers were better ? I don't at all.

Biggs: Again, another huge, young (27) , athletic, talented, highly touted fighter with an exceptional amateur career who was both undefeated and prior to fighting Tyson beat Tillis, Simms, Snipes and Bey .. many people predicted Biggs would be a world champion .. he may have if he didn't run into Tyson ..

It goes on and on .. you criticize fighters for not being as active as this Tyson but no one was even close .. that Tyson was exceptionally active and it was part of why he was exceptional. He was focused and in his zone back then. I think your critiquing is splitting hairs for splitting hairs sake. Here's my question: in a two year period, what heavyweight champion defensed his title as often against better opposition ? My answer, none.