How good of a fighter was Eddie Machen?

They've shown his fight with Sonny Liston on ESPN Classic several times;Liston squeaks out a decision.At his best, he was basically a cruiserweight version of Ali.

 

Machen supposedly fought Liston with one bad hand, and it's been widely speculated about what he might have done against Sonny with two.

Ultimately, Machen was more about potential than achievement. Every time he stepped up for a career defining moment, he fell short. Many felt that he was a victim of bad breaks. I just don't believe he had the psychological makeup of a champion.

Technically, Machen was a fine performer who had the tools necessary to succeed at the title level as a heavyweight. I sometimes wonder what he might have done with the heart and drive of a Marciano. He was certainly large enough to play with the big boys.

If there was one boxer Ali did not face during the 1960s who he and Dundee would have liked to have tested out, it might have been Machen. Even at his very best, Eddie could not have beaten Muhammad, but such a pairing may have been an excellent developmental experience for Ali. A title fight return bout between Liston and Machen may also have proved highly beneficial for Liston, but again, Eddie always seemed to fall short whenever he found himself at the precupice of a major breakthrough.

His late career ten round extension of Frazier had to be a superb learning and conditioning experience for Smoke. Again, if Eddie had Joe's heart and conviction, he very well may have at least gained the WBA HW Title over Terrell.

When he faced off with Karl Mildenberger, he demonstrated undue concern over the fact of Mildenberger being a southpaw. Again, this reveals a chink in his mental makeup. Rather than forcing Mildenberger to accomodate him he took this more submissive tact. Jerry Quarry's career was plagued by similar flaws. Don't fight your opponent's fight, make him fight your fight.

 

He was prety darn good.

In the right era with a bit more luck he might have been a champion.

 

I have to disagree there. With a lot of luck, maybe. But he lost to Patterson; if you can't beat Patterson, then i don't think you deserve to be said of "he would be champ in an other era". Foley, Johnson (as a hw), Johansson and Williams weren't exactly unique fighters, either. In the sense that those kind of fighters are there in every era to stop a guy from Machen from becoming champion. Still, his resume is very good though. Maybe if he fought for the title instead of Braddock, he could've beaten Baer as well. But against most champions, he'd lose.

 

So Mahen could not beat some one like Ruiz or Douglas who were champs? Or Willard, Hart, Braddock, Carnera? etc. I think hed beat such types who became champs. Obiously hed lose to the top fighters, Ali, Lewis, Holmes, Foreman, Marciano, Louis etc but he could beat quiet a few fighters who became champs- especially the alphabet champions.

 

Considering the old schoolness of Janitor, i think by "champion" he meant the linear champion, not an alphabet title (which no doubt he is capable of winning).

Willard, Hart, Braddock and Carnera are among the weakest champions in history. Still, i'd not be surprised if Carnera beats him.

But that doesn't equal "he would've been champion in an other era".
That equals "he could've been champion if he fought in the weakest champion ever". You can make that claim about anyone from Shavers to Morrison.

 

Shavers would have STILL lost to Willard imo. And so would Eddie Machen.

 

Shavers would definitely lose to Willard. Machen, i don't know. Under the rules Willard fought, things don't look well for a guy with Machen's style.

 

Machen was good, but probably a bit gun shy after what Johansson did to him.

Truth be told, Machen ran and held his way through a lot of those 12 rounds with Liston. He'd simply try to grab hold of Liston's arms whenever Sonny threw a punch.

 

I have qualified my statment by saying "with a measure of luck" and you have given examples to justify this statment.

As you say he would be a bit of a long shot even in a weak era but it could happen.

 

Machen was a good fighter in his decade. The book on Machen is thus: Pro: Good durability, good defense, good stamina, and good counting ability. Con: Small size, and less than average power. Machen was good enough to beat some top ten fighters in his era, but fell short of beating the elite level talents.

I do not Machen he would be a contender today at heavyweight, but he would make a heck of a curser weight.

 

That's hardly fair. Janitor didn't say "he would be champ in another era," but rather that he could have been champ in another era with a bit of luck. And what is it with you and picking on Patterson? Like it or not, Patterson was two-time world heavyweight champion and was an elite heavyweight for a solid 15 years. He was an above-average champion. Losing to him does not define you as a sub-championship-potential fighter.

Again, the statement wasn't that he could/would beat most champions, but that if he had a bit of luck in another era he could've been champion. I think Machen was as good as or better than guys like Marvin Hart, Primo Carnera, Jim Braddock, Leon Spinks, Buster Douglas, Shannon Briggs, and Hasim Rahman, all of whom won the linear world championship with a bit of luck. His resume is comparable with some of theirs, containing wins over Quarry, Valdes, Jackson, Jones, DeJohn, etc. and draws with Folley and Williams, and over the first 10 years of his career (which encompass his prime), he lost only to world champions aside from Folley (a #1 contender who he also drew with), indicating that he consistently performed at or near an elite level. In summation, then, I think Machen is among the upper tier of the non-champion heavyweights through history and belongs in the top 50 of all time.

 

I mostly agree with this, but feel Machen is more like top 80. The trouble is, as time rolls on, Machen is going to be moving backwards. He just did not have the power or size beat the better punchers. Machen could also be out boxed by fighters near his own size as well.

 

When Jerry Quarry was this can't-miss prospect, and undefeated, I went to his bout in LA with Machen.

Machen totally shut him down. Jerry's flurries and free-swinging triple hooks to the head and body were eye-catching but hit nothing but Machen's hign guard. Machen consistantly beat him to the punch with tight combinations.

At least Jerry was exciting. Machen had a charisma bypass -- dull dull dull. Think Zora Folley.