How good really was Marciano?

Watch him fight them far, far, far past their prime - not to mention theyh were never really heavyweights to begin with. Rocky = most overrated champ ever.

Tommy Morrison would stop him.

 

Charles and Moore were blown up Light heavies and they gave him hell, then look what Tyson did to Spinks and Frazier did to Foster.

Rockys opponents were also on the whole fairly old , thats not insulting him its just a fact.

He would be a great Cruiserweight and with modern training methods and knowledge on nutrition he would probably have been even better. But i cannot see him beating Ali, Tyson, Lewis, Frazier , Foreman etc etc etc too small.

 

small and slow is no way to go thru today's heavyweight division son...

 

Ezzara Charles does not get the credit he deserves. As disputed heavy champ...no one else had a title though, he beat up 7 very highly rated men, before he became undisputed, champ. In fact Charles had just about cleaned out his division.
It is that many of the names of the good men, are not now known. Go to box rec and check out the guys. Click through thier records.

There are 2 You Tube videos showing Rocky had more defense at the end of his career than thought. One of the very best Champs we ever had at ducking.
Joe Louis doubted he could have beaten Rock at his prime...so that says a hell of a lot.

What many don't realize was Rock was trying to make best fight weight so he would be quick in the ring. His quick, his endurance, his constant pressure. He had the power, so did not need to "bulk" up. In spite of looking like a block, he was "lean and mean and extra fit."

Against Walcott from 5th or 6th round he had crap in his eyes, and couldn't see until the tenth round. So he looked like crap for those rounds.

At the very beginning of his career, he was thrown to the wolves, top 20 types.... then he got a good manager and a trainer and they fed him less so he could learn to slip a punch or other slights of the game.

He beat a lot of good men, and ducked no one. Not even Valdez no matter what others say. He was fighting skillful men. Men who beat the crap out of bigger boxers to get there.
Liston was considered Huge-gigantic at 210-15 pounds, that huge Giant Forman at 6-3, 220 was like a Klitchko today....so those types were beaten by a couple of 185 pound fighters, the Rock and Charles...one was "the Jones of the day"
Basket ball guards in the late 40's and 50s were 6 foot 1-3, forwards 6 foot-5-6, and a huge 6-9 man Mikan, dominated the boards.
big all pro Guards and tackles were 245-250, middle line backers at 225.
I hope that puts "big" into it's proper reference for the time.

 

Lemme touch on some of your points, l, prefacing it with the old adage: “It ain’t how big the dog’s in the fight but how much fight’s in the dog.”

In boxing, every statistical advantage can be thrown out head-to-head.

In the 1930’s, there was a match race between Seabisquit, a runt-of-claiming-stake-nag -- that had lost to ordinary comp -- against the unbeaten, magnificent-looking thoroughbred, War Admiral, who shattered the mark for that distance…and stood hands higher than Seabisquit. On paper, no contest. Head-to-head, a different story.

The inexperienced U.S. college hockey players stood NO chance against the Russian monsters that won several Olympic Championships – with the same team -- and steam-rolled everybody. To a man, they were bigger, faster, better, stronger, and more experienced -- beaten NHL TEAMS.

Game time, they were out-played.

Jim Ryun was the U.S.'s premier miler – shattered the world mark and was unbeaten. Marty Liquori was a gritty miler, with nowhere near Ryan's credentials or gazelle-like stride. Odds-makers gave him no shot in their match race.

Liquori ground Ryun down in the last 100 yards. He out-gutted him at the finish.

Form sheets go out the window when two guys square off; it’s who wants it more.

Nobody ever wanted to win a fight more than Rocky Marciano.

 

Walcott was considered over built with his 195..not the weight but the muscles.
Sean Connelly- James Bond, was runner up for Mr. Universe in 1948 and looked like a gymnast. He would get no second looks at any gym in the world today.

Huge Bronko Nurgursky a half a generation before the Rock, was the best football player in the world more or less. He played both ways as did everyone....full back and middle line backer, at 235 and that was big time big. That was back wehn football was really a demanding sport, not the ***** sport it is now. A game took 75 minutes with half time and you was on the field 60 minutes, with no commercial air breaks every minute and half like today.

Men were still doing hard manual work. Digging ditches at slave driving pace, and so on.

 

Arguably Marciano's greatest strength was his mentality. Let me explain.

He refused to get beaten. Watch his fights, and you'll see a guy who would walk through fire if it meant beating the other guy. He'd get cut, outboxed, occasionally knocked down...didn't matter. He'd come after you, and get you eventually.
Marciano also truly, truly believed that he could not be beaten.
Before his fight with Walcott, his brother Sonny expressed some doubt about Rocky's chances.
"Sonny I'm hurt." He said.
"I'm hurt that you actually think I could lose this fight."

On fight night when Walcott knocked him down, Marciano later admitted he thought at the time "I could get knocked down ten times tonight. This could be a tough fight."
At no point though, did he ever think he could lose.

So yeah, his mental strength was unreal. He trained like a trojan as well, often spending months in camp preparing for a fight. No family were allowed to visit a week or two before the fight, and once somebody brought in Jayne Mansfield to try and tempt Rocky into bedding her.
Fat chance.
"Is he crazy?" She was later to remark. "He didn't want anything to do with me."
Essentially, he was cut off from the outside world. He'd get to read the paper, but any news of the upcoming fight was cut out. He did not even telephone anyone.
Nobody ever trained harder for a fight.

Anytime you've got a supremely conditioned guy in there willing to do anything to win, you've got a tough fight on your hands.

His opponents have been given something of a bad rap too.
Fair enough, some indeed were mere tomato cans but any young fighter fights his fair share coming up.
The biggest guy he ever fought was Jerry Jackson who weighed a whopping 250 pounds. Jackson wasn't a good fighter, but he wasn't a complete stiff either.

His first real test was against hot prospect Carmine Vingo, a tough lanky Bronx fighter with a 16-1 record. What's more, Vingo was a 'Garden' fighter and Marciano was fighting him on his own turf. The brawl was terrific, with Vingo going out in 6 rounds and into a coma. He recovered, but he never fought again.

Rex Layne and Roland La Starza were also very highly thought of at the time Rocky fought them, with the unbeaten La Starza being regarded as the hottest prospect in the country. (or at least one of them.)

Harry 'Kid' Matthews was another very good fighter. The only problem being was that he was a little too small for Marciano, who crushed him in two rounds.

Joe Louis, the immortal Louis, was just a shadow of what he once was but yet he was still most likely a top 5 heavyweight when Marciano beat him.

So Marciano's pre-title oppositon really wasn't bad at all.

His title oppositon is underrated too. Walcott is probably a top 20 consensus all-time heavyweight, Charles ranks pound for pound among the best ever (Even at heavyweight many if not most have him in the top 20), LaStarza would have almost certainly held the title had Marciano never come along, and Moore of course is an all-time great light-heavyweight who bloomed late.
In fact, some of his best fights came after the loss to Marciano. Yes, he may have been past his best, but he was still a heck of a fighter who beat the much larger and world-ranked Nino Valdez to get a title shot at Marciano.
It's also worth noting that he scaled the same as Marciano - 188 - for their fight.

The only 'soft touch' Marciano fought at championship level is Don Cockell, who absorbed a hell of a beating.

But back to Walcott and Charles briefly.

Walcott was another late bloomer who not too long before had given Joe Louis nighmares, and in my opinion he won the first fight between he and Louis. He also beat Charles with a stunning left hook to win the title.
Walcott fought his best fight ever against Marciano (in his estimation) in the first fight and folded quickly in the rematch.

Charles, stung by accusations of being a safety-first fighter, gave Marciano one of his toughest fights by electing to brawl rather than box. He put up a great showing for 10 rounds before Marciano's relentless pressure doused his fire and Rocky win a close but clear decision.
In the return match, Charles looked good for about 2 rounds but Marciano started to reach him after that and knocked him out in 8. Why did Charles and Walcott fold so easily after giving such great performances the first time round?

Many hold the belief that Marciano ruined fighters. The sheer physical and mental pressure he put you under took a lot out of people. Walcott reitred and Charles after Marciano could barely win a fight after Marciano. Don't forget he also retired Vingo.

Moore likened fighting Marciano to fighting a propeller, and many later commented that he's hard to nail cleanly.
Walcott said straight up that Marciano also hit harder than Joe Louis punch for punch.

Looking at Marciano, it's not hard to be amused in a way. He was short, heavy-legged, short-armed and didn't have a style that was pleasing to the eye. He also didn't have muscles popping out everywhere.

Yet, he had a mighty punch in each hand, a granite chin and unyielding mental forttude. His shortness actually was made to work for him instead of against him and he had underrated skills, both in attack and defense.

To compare him to the giants of today is unfair. He'd concede 50 pounds or more to many of them. But I'll be damned if I've ever seen a more tenacious, more unrelenting fighter in heavyweght history.

He was great for his time (and for all-time) and that's good enough for me.

 

Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Joe Louis, Archie Moore. All very skilled, though not significantly larger than him. Then again the Heavyweight division of his era was smaller than the modern ones in general.

His mentality in the ring was one of his strongest attributes, to go with his unending stamina, relentless workrate, durability, and power. Those things all add up in the ring, regardless of technical skills. Ask Margarito about it today, though he can't hold a candle to the Rock.

 

Nope, but big, slow, lumbering, and un-skilled sure is.:good

 

Neither was Rocky a legitimate HW by today's standards. He'd have been a CW. Louis, LaStarza, and Walcott were definitely real, and top notch, Heavyweights by that standard. Guys like Charles and Moore, while natural at LHW, weren't really smaller than Rock and had their share of success at HW. Morrison would get his glass jaw shattered.

 

Charles was 32 to Rock's 28, the other two, Moore and Walcott were One and Only Champs at the time...Your Hopkins of the day. So that is a fallacy.
I can see him beating a 195 pound Frazier. Tyson would be one hell of a battle. Forman is a maby. Clay maybe not, unless it was a very small ring.

How ever Ali was impressed when he was 30 by a 45 year old Rock..he also said he was harder to hit than thought, and hit harder. Ali said he was shocked how Rock could cut the ring off on him. Rock had slimmed down to 245 or so from 300...so he was not in his real fighting weight.

You keep forgetting 185 was Rocks prime fighting weight, for quickness and endurance. Had he wanted too he too could have come in at 95% at 195...but he liked 185/6.
Rock would be cruiser champ at 185 today...especially if you had weigh in on the same day of th fight.
He could have beaten a Peters or a Maskov, and Valuov too. Klits or Lewis no.
He would have eaten Byrd for breakfast.

 

Against the Vitali who fought Lewis, I can not see how Rocky could win.

Against Wlad, he might if he lands a good one right in the button but I wouldn't bet on the chance of that happening.

 

I think Marciano could make lhw with today´s possibilities to drain weight and 24h before fight weigh in. Imagine Marciano fighting lhws scares me quite a bit.

btw. Ali himself said that he was surprised how hard Marciano was to hit, when they made the footage of that computer superfight in the 60s. And by the time Marciano was retired for ages, untrained and had back-problems. Should tell you something.

 

He'd most likely lose to both, but who cares? Neither will ever have a legacy that could touch his.

This is why I don't like H2H when ranking fighters, because the big guys today will always have the size advantage.
It doesn't mean they have a skill advantage though. Marciano for his time was a heavyweight.

 

Agree, no doubt Rocky ranks far higher in ATG sense. Accomplishment-wise, the Klits have long way to go.