How good really was Marciano?

oztriker · Nov 2, 2008

fists of fury said:

Arguably Marciano's greatest strength was his mentality. Let me explain.

He refused to get beaten. Watch his fights, and you'll see a guy who would walk through fire if it meant beating the other guy. He'd get cut, outboxed, occasionally knocked down...didn't matter. He'd come after you, and get you eventually.
Marciano also truly, truly believed that he could not be beaten.
Before his fight with Walcott, his brother Sonny expressed some doubt about Rocky's chances.
"Sonny I'm hurt." He said.
"I'm hurt that you actually think I could lose this fight."

On fight night when Walcott knocked him down, Marciano later admitted he thought at the time "I could get knocked down ten times tonight. This could be a tough fight."
At no point though, did he ever think he could lose.

So yeah, his mental strength was unreal. He trained like a trojan as well, often spending months in camp preparing for a fight. No family were allowed to visit a week or two before the fight, and once somebody brought in Jayne Mansfield to try and tempt Rocky into bedding her.
Fat chance.
"Is he crazy?" She was later to remark. "He didn't want anything to do with me."
Essentially, he was cut off from the outside world. He'd get to read the paper, but any news of the upcoming fight was cut out. He did not even telephone anyone.
Nobody ever trained harder for a fight.

Anytime you've got a supremely conditioned guy in there willing to do anything to win, you've got a tough fight on your hands.

His opponents have been given something of a bad rap too.
Fair enough, some indeed were mere tomato cans but any young fighter fights his fair share coming up.
The biggest guy he ever fought was Jerry Jackson who weighed a whopping 250 pounds. Jackson wasn't a good fighter, but he wasn't a complete stiff either.

His first real test was against hot prospect Carmine Vingo, a tough lanky Bronx fighter with a 16-1 record. What's more, Vingo was a 'Garden' fighter and Marciano was fighting him on his own turf. The brawl was terrific, with Vingo going out in 6 rounds and into a coma. He recovered, but he never fought again.

Rex Layne and Roland La Starza were also very highly thought of at the time Rocky fought them, with the unbeaten La Starza being regarded as the hottest prospect in the country. (or at least one of them.)

Harry 'Kid' Matthews was another very good fighter. The only problem being was that he was a little too small for Marciano, who crushed him in two rounds.

Joe Louis, the immortal Louis, was just a shadow of what he once was but yet he was still most likely a top 5 heavyweight when Marciano beat him.

So Marciano's pre-title oppositon really wasn't bad at all.

His title oppositon is underrated too. Walcott is probably a top 20 consensus all-time heavyweight, Charles ranks pound for pound among the best ever (Even at heavyweight many if not most have him in the top 20), LaStarza would have almost certainly held the title had Marciano never come along, and Moore of course is an all-time great light-heavyweight who bloomed late.
In fact, some of his best fights came after the loss to Marciano. Yes, he may have been past his best, but he was still a heck of a fighter who beat the much larger and world-ranked Nino Valdez to get a title shot at Marciano.
It's also worth noting that he scaled the same as Marciano - 188 - for their fight.

The only 'soft touch' Marciano fought at championship level is Don Cockell, who absorbed a hell of a beating.

But back to Walcott and Charles briefly.

Walcott was another late bloomer who not too long before had given Joe Louis nighmares, and in my opinion he won the first fight between he and Louis. He also beat Charles with a stunning left hook to win the title.
Walcott fought his best fight ever against Marciano (in his estimation) in the first fight and folded quickly in the rematch.

Charles, stung by accusations of being a safety-first fighter, gave Marciano one of his toughest fights by electing to brawl rather than box. He put up a great showing for 10 rounds before Marciano's relentless pressure doused his fire and Rocky win a close but clear decision.
In the return match, Charles looked good for about 2 rounds but Marciano started to reach him after that and knocked him out in 8. Why did Charles and Walcott fold so easily after giving such great performances the first time round?

Many hold the belief that Marciano ruined fighters. The sheer physical and mental pressure he put you under took a lot out of people. Walcott reitred and Charles after Marciano could barely win a fight after Marciano. Don't forget he also retired Vingo.

Moore likened fighting Marciano to fighting a propeller, and many later commented that he's hard to nail cleanly.
Walcott said straight up that Marciano also hit harder than Joe Louis punch for punch.

Looking at Marciano, it's not hard to be amused in a way. He was short, heavy-legged, short-armed and didn't have a style that was pleasing to the eye. He also didn't have muscles popping out everywhere.

Yet, he had a mighty punch in each hand, a granite chin and unyielding mental forttude. His shortness actually was made to work for him instead of against him and he had underrated skills, both in attack and defense.

To compare him to the giants of today is unfair. He'd concede 50 pounds or more to many of them. But I'll be damned if I've ever seen a more tenacious, more unrelenting fighter in heavyweght history.

He was great for his time (and for all-time) and that's good enough for me.
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One of the best posts ever on ESB:good

Many thanks

yale · Nov 2, 2008

Achilleslststnd said:

Good fighter but overrated unfortunately. Rock fought in the 50s and when most (all) "white" fighters didn't meet up with the toughest bros unless they were 35+ or so (baseball hadn't broke the color barrier until the late 40s). Charles, Walcott and Louis were all on the downside and near the end of their careers (Charles was only about 33 but had already fought a million wars against other tough bros). The heavyweights of the era were smaller so I think he only fought a couple guys above 200 lbs (one being JL). He was considered the best (sort of like Calzaghe on ESB) but actually never had to fight a prime fighter of color for obvious reasons.
Rock was the arguably the greatest "white" heavyweight (more or less). I was a kid in the 60s and my pop was into boxing so I was heavily exposed to Rock. As a sign of the times, Ali (Clay) wasn't accorded the legendary status he has today as the whole racial thing was very, very potent. Only begrudgingly, over a long period, did Ali receive the credit for his obvious and ample talent.

No disrespect to Rock - dig watching him fight.
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Yes, we all know that black's are the best heavyweights out there

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How good really was Marciano?

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How good really was Marciano?

oztriker Boxing Addict Full Member

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