How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by JAB5239, May 16, 2011.


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  1. The Spider

    The Spider Guest

    :deal
     
    The Spider, May 20, 2011
    The Spider, May 20, 2011
    #226
  2. JAB5239

    JAB5239 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Lol, at you link. Thats a newspaperman's opinion!

    What was the point of fighting Billy Miske a year after Greb whooped him? Was it because of the way Miske had been knocking people out since he last fought Dempsey, 5 ko's in 24 fights? The fact is Dempsey wanted no part of Greb especially after he had humiliated him in sparring. Many people wanted this fight, Dempsey didn't. You can't rewrite history.

    What was the point in fighting Gibbons in 1923? Do you really think more people wanted to see Dempsey against a guy Greb beat the year before,or Greb Himself? By your own link both had eliminated one another the year before. So why fight the loser?

    Pay particular attention to the April 1922 article.
    http://www.harrygreb.com/dempsey_greb.html

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    JAB5239, May 20, 2011
    JAB5239, May 20, 2011
    #227
  3. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    I've thought quite hard about this and it's sister thread lately. Incomparison with heavyweight history their aren't many definitively better reins outside of louis, ali, rocky, jeffries and maybe sullivan.

    I put demsey's on par with lewis, johnson and holmes in that he is remembers as the premiere heavyweight of his era and was champ for a number of years yet failed to meet his two top challengers. The thing is with dempsey i'm sure he'd have pummeled greb and received no credit but that doesn't change the fact that greb had earned his shot as had wills.

    I'm going with a b.
     
    lufcrazy, May 20, 2011
    lufcrazy, May 20, 2011
    #228
  4. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

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    I have no doubt Greb would have been a very tough bout for Dempsey but do believe the 1920 version beats Greb over 15 ... given that they did spar and Jack knew how difficult Greb could be he would be in top condition for the bout ... if Greb waqs fought to a stand still by the smaller Norfolk, I have to believe Dempsey would be too tough over 15 .. when you watch the Carpienter fight in slow motion and see how that Dempsey ripped to the body I can't imagine it not catching up with Greb at some point. We can say Dempsey never fought anyone like Greb but we can also say Greb never fought a big man like Dempsey .... I also feel Greb was a no win for Dempsey's management ... that being said if Dempsey fought and defeated Greb and Wills s champ he would be a far more certain commodity in my book ..
     
    he grant, May 20, 2011
    he grant, May 20, 2011
    #229
  5. quarry

    quarry Guest

    as alway's any evidence is "rubbish" by you and your `Hate-Agenda` ....You cherry-pick quotes in an attempt to claim Dempsey ducked Greb and twist and contort fact's to try to make your foolish case.

    GREB IS OUT OF THE QUESTION. THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS THAT HARRY CAN'T HIT A LICK. HE'S A GOOD AGGRESSIVE BOY WITH A GOOD FIGHTING HEART, BUT HE IS NOT READY FOR A MAN WITH DEMPSEY'S PROPORTION'S, AND PROBABLY NEVER WILL BE.

    Greb wanted a `payday` and was only willing to fight Dempsey in an 8 round no-decision bout where he could run & run & run. no champion is going to agree to that. Greb was also "ORDERED BY THE COMMISION" to face Tiger Flowers. who defeated Greb as did Gene Tunney on three occasions, which completely put Greb out of the equation.. The link you provided is "old news" and does not tell how Dave Sands was Dempsey's No1 sparring partner and by far the best fighter in camp.
     
    quarry, May 20, 2011
    quarry, May 20, 2011
    #230
  6. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    I'm still hoping for some input or answers to the above .....
    Klompton is apparently the best qualified to answer.

    I find it puzzling how IF Greb wasn't considered "too small and lacking punch", or more suited to the middleweights, and everyone was aware of his full HW credentials, what were the reasons behind him being completely overlooked by so many observers outside of Demspey and Kearns.
    Several of these people - writers, commissioners, the newspaper reader boxing fans etc. - seemed to almost completely ignore him as a challenger, or at least rate him behind some of the HWs he had outpointed.
    I'm no saying I have the answers, but I do offer a partial theory - one which was reflected in some of the newspaper articles of the time.
    If I'm 100% wrong what is the correct answer ?
     
    Unforgiven, May 20, 2011
    Unforgiven, May 20, 2011
    #231
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    You've already explained the reason. Dempsey avoided Greb because he was to good. Didn't you say this a few pages back, or did I iimagine it? What other reason do you need?

    Size and power are like speed and strength. If Nathan Cleverly had a large enough helping of everything, the clamour for him to fight Haye would be deafening.

    There were things that were against Greb's fight getting made. There was not enough against him that he wasn't a top pick to face Dempsey. What else really matters?

    You've said that you are not saying Greb's size and power were a bar to the fight. You seem to be saying the reason there wasn't 10% (or whatever) more noise for the fight is to do with size and power. OK. That's fine. It's also true, in some way or another, of every contender in history - every fighter that has ever fought.

    If it's not a bar to the fight, if you're happy Dempsey's avoidance of Greb is mostly to do with his quality, why the perennial question of punch and size? You yourself seem to see it as a point of minor importance at best.

    My answer - his size made him easier to duck just as Wills colour made him easy to duck

    There would also have been justification if he were bigger and slower. Or more powerful and smaller. And on and on.

    The bottom line - the public wanted the fight, Greb wanted the fight, promoters tried to make the fight.

    The fight wasn't made because of Kearns and Dempsey. Not because of Greb's size and power.



    Also, what are the newspaper articles that dismiss Greb for his lack of punch? I've seen one here and liked reading that, did you track down any others?
     
    McGrain, May 20, 2011
    McGrain, May 20, 2011
    #232
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Don't you think that the vast sums of money that were offered to Dempsey to fight Greb by proffessional promoters rather overhals the opinion of one newspaperman?


    Thousands of dollars. A defence of his title against a qualified opponent. All in the best imaginable circumstances for the champion where he has to be knocked out to lose the title.

    Oh, and it was Dempsey's idea. That's why "Greb's management" tried to make that fight. This has been documented already in this thread.
     
    McGrain, May 20, 2011
    McGrain, May 20, 2011
    #233
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Jesus Christ man.
     
    McGrain, May 20, 2011
    McGrain, May 20, 2011
    #234
  10. JAB5239

    JAB5239 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Your proof....some guy who wrote an opinion in a newspaper.

    My proof...."
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    ".... a quote from Dempseys own manager.

    Which one carries more weight? I provide facts, you provided fanboy opinions.
     
    JAB5239, May 20, 2011
    JAB5239, May 20, 2011
    #235
  11. JAB5239

    JAB5239 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    This is the bottom line when you get down to brass tacks.
     
    JAB5239, May 20, 2011
    JAB5239, May 20, 2011
    #236
  12. quarry

    quarry Guest

    This is what your problem is and alway's has been in that you refuse to accept anyone else's points and try to make out that you are 100% correct on everything, yet we all have to go by the archive newspapers because none of us was alive at the time to be able to recall the events.

    Here is the 8 round no-decision offer... or is it Rubbish.

    http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F20B12F739551A738DDDAD0894DF405B828EF1D3

    Dempsey & Kearns had offers coming in by the day from all over the world to fight lot's of different fighters as well as exhibitions.
     
    quarry, May 20, 2011
    quarry, May 20, 2011
    #237
  13. quarry

    quarry Guest

    :lol:

    why is my proof, "just some guy who wrote an opinion in a newspaper"... and your proof "is carved in stone" :lol:

    you and McGrain are reciting quotes and phrases from Greb's biography yet it would be easy for others to make the exact claim that you yourself have just made above that, "it's just some guy who wrote an opinion in a book" ...
     
    quarry, May 20, 2011
    quarry, May 20, 2011
    #238
  14. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    he, you echo my sentiments:good
     
    burt bienstock, May 20, 2011
    burt bienstock, May 20, 2011
    #239
  15. JAB5239

    JAB5239 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Lol, you're such a clown. You haven't answered any of my questions and have completely ignored the quote from Dempsey's own manager. :lol:
     
    JAB5239, May 20, 2011
    JAB5239, May 20, 2011
    #240
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