How good was Duran - P4P GOAT?

No. But Jones' standing is what it is because he has a poor level of competition. He is generally not considered for p4p top 10 lists. Let's agree his best weight was SMW. If he had stepped up to LHW and fought (hypothetical) Archie Moore for 1/3, fights Hollfyield at Cruiserweight and loses, fights Tyson at Heavyweight and loses does he now somehow get into that p4p top 10 discussion?

What is becoming apparant here is that loses at the very highest level are more important to me than you. I have said that if we reverse the Duran big loses he could be considered for the p4p #1 spot.

Burley - Reverse his losses to Bivins, Charles, Marshall (in all of these fights he was the smaller man) and he can be considered for the #1 spot in my view.

Greb - Reverse his losses to Tunney and he is locked in the #1 spot.

Ali - Reverse his losses to Frazier, Holmes and Norton and the p4p #1 would be a heavyweight.

Duran lost his biggest fights context or no.

The Moore win is a good one and as i've said, wins like that (plus his looks) are the reason he flies so very high. But the thing that got me started on Duran these past weeks are the fights that he lost, not the ones that he won. Maybe that would lead me to downgrade any fighter and the feeling will pass...

Duran had a series of disadvantages that led him to lose. This is the same with any fighter that loses. Because Duran's disadvantages were mostly physical you place him in the top 5. OK. Even though Duran's disadvantages were mostly physical, I don't have him in the top 5 because he lost against the best.

I didn't mean to disupte out and out what you said about folks supporting Leonard - just to outline my own position.

Yes he does. Of course he does. I'm not going to slot a guy into any p4p slot of the back of one incredible win. I think that Burley's win over Moore is better than Duran's win over Leonard. I think that Langford's win over Wills is better than Duran's win over Leonard. I think that Greb's win over Tunney is better than Duran's win over Leonard. But I don't rate ANY of these guys specifically of the back of these wins. How did they do when they came up against OTHER agreat fighters at OTHER times. Really, really well.

I don't have Tunney above Duran by the way, and don't insist upon these results being better than the Duran result, i'm just saying that there are plenty of spectacular wins in the history of the sport. I don't understand the above really. He may not have to repeat a great win v an all time great to get onto your list, but it might be the case that he would have needed to to get onto mine.

Nice. But you're equating the best peice of art of all time with a guy beating a great fighter at the weight above. An often acomplished feat.

You're either vastly underating the size of the divisions or underating these two horrifically. These men you have mentioned are in the top .01% of their respective divisions. Tunney is a lock for the top 5 LHW's of all time and Wills is a top 20 HW for me, top 10 for some. If Langford were fighting fair he'd probably be fighting at MW/SMW.

De La Hoya, Mayweather and Whitaker all might have achieved more.

I'm being very hard on Duran here, I know but we are talking about the ten best fighters who have ever breathed. It is acceptable to be really hard on all of them I think. Make a list of the eleven best fighters of all time. I would suggest that Armstrong, Greb and Langford aside a case can be made to slot any one of them at 11. We are talking about a hair's breadth. That hair can perhaps be described by a fighters losses above weight.

Very very good wins, especially the Armstrong win. If every other aspect of Duran's career remains the same I would say he is a lock for the top 3.

I'll agree that Hagler is above LaMotta a step but I dispute hotly that Zivic is "leagues" below Leonard. Under a 1940's ruleset I would give Zivic a very, very good chance against Leonard.

p4p Duran is by far the better man. But at the weight I don't think Duran has anything like the power (or style!) to keep LaMotta off. Wide, wide points victory for LaMotta, in my opinion.

Plenty would, you're right my friend.

#11 IS elite.

 

It's a pleasure to talk with you. I am mad at work just now too, just looking in on this thread basically.