How good was Duran - P4P GOAT?

1. Robinson
2. Greb
3. Armstrong
4. Duran
5. Pep
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Benny Leonard
8. Archie Moore
9. Ross
10. Ali

 

Watch the video Pea posted and you'll see what Whitaker's offense was all about. Duran had a fearsome reputation and was a fighter who for the vast majority of lightweight reign was coming at you throwing bombs. Also when comparing their offense Whitaker's lack of power and soft demeanor fools everyone.

A fighter with authoritive power doesn't automatically mean he has a better offense than a fighter who's power was low key, to an extent it does as when each fighter in question hit an opponent the results were were different. Whitaker could lay his gloves on an opponent from all angles. And one thing Whitaker had over Duran from LA to New York, the ability to use his offense going backwards. And its thats very thing which Duran would find was his undoing against Whitaker.

Regarding defense. Do you think Duran could stand in front of Ramirez up close and at arms length and make him miss as much as Whitaker did in their rematch?. I'm not saying Ramirez would be able to hit Duran as much as vice versa, but he would be able to get to Duran more than he did against Whitaker.

 

Totally agree.

Even though Armstrong fought smaller, and swarmed in a more straight forward manner than Duran, and even though Leonard punched quite a bit harder than Whitaker, I still see Armstrong beating Benny for basically the same reasons Duran beats Whitaker.

Benny didn't exactly fight tall in order to pose height/distance cutting problems for Armstrong.

And if Armstrong is more straightforward and likely to be matadored than Duran is, then let's be honest, Benny is more straightforward than Whitaker and will be easier to find. In which case, that Armstrong is more straightforward won't be more of a disadvantage to him against Leonard than Duran's versatility will be to the more defensively cute Whitaker.

When it comes to punching power, though Benny had good pop, I don't see it fazing Armstrong. His chin is rock and his willingness to walk through shots is extraordinary. Like Whitaker will have problems keeping Duran off him, Benny will have problems keeping Armstrong off him.

I agree he would, but I still think Armstrong would take a good 6 or 7 rounds from him in the process. His pressure is too relentless to negate for a vast portion of the fight, even with the andvantages Ray holds.

Idiotic judges' scoring notwithstanding, Duran was not doing enough to win rounds consistently from Hagler. He fought a cautious fight, as did Hagler; the difference being that Hagler was being cautious and winning rounds, Duran was losing them, and so the ball was in his court to up the ante and do more to try and get the rounds in the book. He didn't. He was content to stay "close" in just about evey round, and lost lopsided on the scoreboard.

Harsh given the disadvantages Duran was going into the fight with? Sure, but it is what it is, and he lost big on any card which isn't blinded from nuthuggery.

 

Been reading the comments, but haven't been replying. You're doing a good enough job defending/praising Pea without me having to interject :good

 

I see my kindness towards you is being repaid. If you write me off as a nuthugger because I have Duran ranked where I have spent days arguing he belongs then you just don't listen. Duran fans and Leonard fans are not necessarily rival gang members. I'm a fan of both, but recognize that Duran was greater. It is not a shocking pronouncement.

Ray Leonard's level of skill is excellent. His head-to-head ability is excellent. I see only a handful of WW beating him. He has about as strong a conquest list as you are going to see, but it is not as pristine as it appears on paper:

The Benitez fight was great and close. He lost to Duran, a natural LW, when it mattered most. The Hearns fight clinched his greatness but he failed to give a rematch for 9 years. The Hagler fight is flawed for many reasons -not least of which is that many if not most think that Ray lost that fight. Ray did not dominate his natural division. He had a mere 40 fights -to be an elite you got to fight more than that. His longevity is average. He was not exemplary against larger men.

I have already told you that Greb is exception. Those few years back then count as decades from our vantage point. The sport changed completely -within a few years. I would give Langford and Gans and Fitzsimmons honorable mentions or some such.

 

What makes you think that Harry Greb is more technicaly proficient than Sam Langford or Joe Gans or Bob Fitzsimmons for that matter?

 

How about asking Sweet Pea to post the last minute and a half of Duran-Cuevas, where Duran slips 4 or 5 shots and then closes the show? How about round 2 of Duran-Moore where you see a clinic of rolling, slipping, countering, and spinning off the ropes? All these 4 or 5 years past his prime.

How about posting where he makes the ultra-fast Leonard miss 5 or 6 consecutive punches late in the fight in Montreal? How about against Palomino where he combines the arts of defense and offense? And on and on...

Anyway, back to the task. You would be hardpressed to argue that Whitaker was as effective an offensive machine as Duran. It ain't close.

Regarding Ramirez. Keep in mind that in the rematch, Ramirez was fighting his 100th fight and was 30 years old. Duran would have rendered him prostrate in my opinion. And I don't think Duran would care either way whether he could "make Ramirez miss". The man was a sadist. He would gladly eat shots to hurt Ramirez.

Duran's artistry was incidental to savagery. Pernell was artistry was, well, part of his artistry.

Be serious. Here's a one-two to knock this out:
1. Duran disdained the very idea of going backwards!
2. Whitaker ain't hurting Duran going forwards and he is even less likely to hurt him going backwards. So how the hell is that going to prove to be Duran's "undoing"?

 

I don't think that.

The NBA didn't even exist before 1920 and didn't become a sanctioning body until what -1927? Before regulation, the sport and its singular parts are more suspect. Newspaper decisions, caliber of opponents... these are not the stuff of reliability and validity.

 

With Duran, it does matter whether or not an opponent can keep him off. Vasquez, Nelson, and Ramirez don't even hint at what Duran would do against Whitaker.

Again, he never lost against an opponent who was either smaller than he or who did not have a damn good shot -like DeJesus' left hook.

If Duran is not wary of Whitaker's shots, then all of sweet pea's savvy and defensive artistry won't make the difference you want it to because Duran will just pounce and hammer the smaller man. And he would do that far better than anyone Pernell has faced in the LW division.

 

... and that is a fair position.

That is debatable. You neglect to allow for the fact that any swarmer must respect serious mitts. Leonard had serious mitts.

Perhaps so... and Armstrong had subtle little pivots, shifts, and head movement that made him more elusive than expected... but Leonard was so savvy in there. He had, I think, the most brilliant mind ever in the ring.

I'd agree. Henry would probably look great until Leonard started to measure him and find windows.

I had Hagler up by at least 3 or 4 rounds (less if 12 rounds), but Duran did surprisingly well in there.

Duran didn't do more because he got tired. Duran fought him inside the perimeter and Hagler was like heavy timber in there. It wears you out tangling with that. No one disputes that Duran won that I know of. But Hagler would have destroyed Whitaker because there would have been no need to worry about anything incoming. Anyone who argues otherwise is guilty of base "nuthuggery."

 

Im serious alright don't worry. And Whitaker sure aint hurting Duran going forwards and even less likely backwards. How the hell is that going to prove Duran's undoing?. Nothing to do with power, and if you look back at my previous posts you will not see I have not tried to blow Whitaker's power up more than it is.

I'll tell you how it would prove to be Duran's undoing. Because Duran would pressure Whitaker, but those razor sharp fists would be in his face as he was driving forward while Whitaker was on the backfoot. Nothing to do with Whitaker hurting Duran, but he would be outscoring him, thats for sure.

Whitaker in my eyes had brilliant offense with no damaging effects, and his ability to stand his ground for 4-5 seconds and let go with punches before skipping away to create distance, he could hold his own with Duran during those moments. I don't mean hold his own regarding powerful shots, scoring shots.

 

Another thing Stonehands.


"1. Duran disdained the very idea of going backwards"

I meant it would be Duran's undoing, not because he never fought on the backfoot, but more to do with Whitaker having that in his arsenal. And having that attribute would prove pivotal during those moments Duran was blazing forward.

Why would Duran want to fight Whitaker going backwards, not his strength considering he clearly has an advantage when it comes to power. Again, just an example of Whitaker's versatility within the ropes which he had over Duran. Whitaker threw punches no matter what way he was moving, laterally, forwards, backwards. And I'm sure you would concede its a very handy thing to have against Duran's no matter who's being matched against him in a mythical match.

 

"A fighter with authoritive power doesn't automatically mean he has a better offense than a fighter who's power was low key, to an extent it does as when each fighter in question hit an opponent the results were different"

Duran's aura and reputation at lightweight also gives him this so called massive advantage in offense over Whitaker.

Offense.

Power: Duran

Speed: Whitaker, slight edge.

Combinations: Even

Jab: Whitaker

Body punching: Duran, slight edge.

Accuracy: Whitaker, slight edge.

 

Fair enough.

We look at this hypothetical very differently. I see Duran walking through Whitaker's shots and landing his own more telling blows to Whitaker's arms, legs, neck, hips --wherever. Sure, Whitaker may make him miss badly at times -he could do that and often, but for 15 rounds against one of the greatest and most skilled and sadistic boxer-puncher/swarmer/counterpunching body-snatchers ever in his prime?

Nah.