How good was Duran - P4P GOAT?

I don't think that it helps to beat Duran by going backwards... Unless he is out of shape, fighting out of his prime, and uninspired. You got to box him yes, but you also have to have both strength and power.

 

Thats where we see things differently. I think Whitaker would be able to go the distance and outpoint Duran, basically you see Duran's work being more effective over the majority of rounds than Whitaker's, I happen to have my shoe on the opposite foot in that regard.

No nuthugging either way when prestenting our cases. You have not said said "Duran would box the ears off Whitaker", and I sure aint said "Duran's getting carried out of the ring on a stretcher with an oxygen mask strapped around his mouth".

Our points have been put forward fairly, I have lived with yours and taken them on board, probably likewise the otherway.

 

My mistake --thanks for clarifying, my friend.

 

Absolutely. I think that you did a fine job presenting Whitaker's case against Duran. If I may be so bold to say, your debating skills are getting quite good.

 

Stonehands. I need time to think more than others. I don't often go back and forth with long in-depth posts like we did over the last 4-5 pages. That comes along every so often. Obviously depending on the responses I get in return to my posts, or how I respond to someone elses.

Some people can think and type simultaneously. I'm a little different. Its all inside my head, its just getting it out effectively. My end product aint too bad as you have seen, although others on here have better vocabulary than myself.

 

You underestimate yourself.

The beauty of this site is not merely the boxing knowledge that is shared. Nor is simply the fact that we can all indulge in pugilistic fantasies...

It is also the intellectual skills that are sharpened --these kinds of debates are studies in argumentation ... rhetoric, philosophy (pugilistic and otherwise) and logic. There is an art and a science to this. The more you do it with a worthy opponent, the sharper you get between the ears. That isn't just a fact, it's the damn truth.

 

Whitaker wouldn't beat Duran at welterweight, that I must confesss. Those qualities I put forward for the lightweight match are not getting the job done for Whitaker at 147lbs.

Whitaker wasn't as busy with his fists, and he tended to stand more flat-footed. The Duran who shared rings with Palamino and Leonard would be too good for Whitaker.

Whitaker's speed had diminshed considerably, and elusive defensive masters rely on speed and anticipation.

 

Agreed.

 

I hate it when people say Duran was a top 5 p4p great.

Robinson
Armstrong
Langford
Ali
Charles
Greb
Louis

That's 7 guys right there that Clearly have better resumes than Roberto Duran and are more accomplished in boxing than duran is.

 

Whats wrong with that, are heavyweights too heavy to be so high on someones list?

 

I acknowledge that, but Hank had a mighty way for disrespecting anything that didn't coincide with his will. I can't see Benny's fists ultimately being an exception to that rule, though they'd obviously have some say in the matter.

I'm with you on that, Leonard probably had the greatest boxing mind of all time.

No doubt Hagler would punish Whitaker.

3 or 4 rounds is a little close imo, but not an altogether rediculous score.

Duran might have tired near the end but imo after the early stages of the fight he was never really in it to win it (still had him comfortably behind after 12) because for most of the rounds he was being extraordinarily cautious. Probably had to be in order to survive in Hagler's sights, but to me it never really looked like he was out to take the lead and stake a claim for a victory.

I think that if he did press a little harder he probably would have been ko'ed, so it wasn't altogether silly to go cautiously as he did, but he was giving rounds away in the process that took him out of the equation.

My card anyway, just for the record:

146-140 Hagler

Duran winning rounds 3,4,11 and 12.
Hagler winning rounds 1,2,5,6,7,8,9,12,14 and 15.
Round 10 even.

 

Nicely said.

Your score is fair to me, but a few of Hagler's rounds could slide to Duran if you prefer finesse and counterpunching skill.

Duran told the world that he "had a surprise for Hagler". That surprise was that he was not going to fight the biggest man he had ever been in the ring with like he had Leonard, Cuevas, or Moore. He sought to play chess -to counter and set Hagler up for those counters by feinting. I think that he sought to catch Hagler coming in, start to bang him up and then get more aggressive at the end. Duran was good at working on an eye and then sliding to the blind side as the fight wore on. Against bigger men, that is a good way to even out matters.

When I sparred, at times I'd be in against guys who loved to run -marathon runners. I hated running and so my conditioning suffered for it. What to do? Become a murderous body puncher. That evened matters out for me. And it enabled me to do less roadwork and have an excuse.

Anyway, Hagler expected Duran to go at him like he usually did... and Duran didn't. Hagler saw the ploy and opted to be cautious. Duran was setting traps right and left. Thus the fight became a chess match.

Now JT and legions of others fault Hagler for this and use it against him. I say that retrospect is 100% sure, but Hagler had history on his side and Duran was on fire and in great condition that night. When Hagler did start getting agressive midway, you'll note that his left eye started swelling -from Duran's right. Had Hagler been aggressive earlier, I think it quite possible that the eye would have swelled earlier and perhaps even closed. Duran can't beat Hagler because he is too small. But Duran can beat a one-eyed Hagler -have no doubt about that.

 

Haha! Don't feel bad. It is a testimony to an intelligent mind. Intelligent minds are prone to change.

You'll settle on a static list someday, and then I'll attack it in honor of your intellectual fortitude. And I'd appreciate the same regard from you.