How good was Duran - P4P GOAT?

How many years had it been since Ortiz had beaten anyone with a pulse? I'm pretty sure Nelson beats that Ortiz too.

I'd give Nelson a decent chance against Laguna as well, though of course, Nelson wasn't fortunate enough to run into a Laguna level fighter who hadn't been training properly when he went up to lightweight.

 

Nice avatar JT. Never seen that particular one before, a rare picture indeed.

Agreed regarding Hearns' loss to Barkley. While Barkley was cut over both eyes, he never took a pounding. Hearns' sharp jabs opened the cuts I believe. Hearns' heavy artillery came into serious play during the 3rd round, with mostly left hooks to the body doing the damage. Barkley was clearly losing, but wasn't taking a serious beating. Only during patches in the 3rd round did he look in any kind of trouble.

 

I'm not in anyway trying to make Whitaker's win over Nelson look even better than it was, but Nelson measured up to Whitaker physically on the night. He wasn't just taller than Whitaker, but from the legs right up to the shoulders he was on par with Whitaker thickness wise. They certainly looked like fighters from the same division. Nelson never fought at lightweight again, which I thought was strange considering those circumstances.

 

Id have to favour Buchanan over Nelson at lightweight. Kenny was a superb boxer.

 

Nelson was no lightweight chum, hence the reason he barely fought there, so him beating Laguna is a hideous call. Oh, and it's funny how all-time greats seem to be considered when Duran loses to one of them, yet when a guy Duran beat up easily defeats one he's way past his best. Can't have it both ways.


ps. That last setence was aimed at the general thread rather than just to you.

 

Would you say Nelson grew into a lightweight out of neccessity or add the weight gradually, or did he artificially add the weight to compete there? Bottom line - Whitaker was definitely a natural 135 pound fighter, Nelson was not. Weight, height, wrist measure etc doesn't matter one iota. A great big man almost always beats a great little one with all things being equal.

I in turn am taking nothing away from Whitaker, i have immense respect for him. Beating Nelson was a fabulous win, but lets not make him out to be a natural 135. I don't doubt he could have beat many a fine fighter there however.

 

He did....and lost.

 

Nelson did look pretty much on par with Whitaker (he looked a tad smaller frame-wise imo), but you have to remember that Whitaker was himself always on the small side as a lightweight. Guys like Mayweather, Pendleton, Ramirez, Jones, Diaz often dwarfed him in comparison.

Though small as Nelson was, he was still about as strong a fighter as Whitaker faced there. He pushed Whitaker back and had him on the retreat more than any other lightweight managed to with the exception of Ramirez, (and that was a Whitaker basically fighting with one hand). Whitaker, though nothing near a big puncher, still managed to rattle just about every lightweight he ever faced. Nelson was one of the exceptions. And when you consider that Whitaker hit him more than just about any other lightweight he ever faced, that tells you something about Nelson's ability to take a punch.

There was really no point in Nelson fighting at lightweight again, especially since Whitaker unified the division in his very next fight.

He could have re-entered the lightweight division a couple of years later when Whitaker vacated, but he was probably a little too far past his prime by then to make a decent fist of it.

Had Whitaker not been there, I think there's every chance he could have unified the division. I think he beats Haugen, Ramirez and Nazario there.

 

I couldn't care if Nelson started off at flyweight, all I'm saying was on the night when he fought Whitaker they looked the same size physically. They never looked like fighters from different divisions, which usually happens when a fighter moves up in weight against a natural at the weight above. Whitaker moved up to light-middleweight, and no way was that particular division for him, and Nelson doing the same was never going to happen in a million years.

Not too sure I'd use "a great big man always beats a great little one" with Whitaker beating Nelson. As i stated above they looked the same size on the night. Bowe over Holyfield, Hopkins over De La Hoya, are fights I'd say "a great big man always beats a little great one".

Afterall that, I don't think Nelson was a natural lightweight by any means. Doesn't sound right I know, but he looked like a lightweight fighting Whitaker.

 

His last fight with Leija, correct.

 

I didn't say I'd favour Nelson to beat Laguna, but I would give him a decent shot at it. Flash Elorde, who was no natural lightweight himself, managed the feat, so I wouldn't discount Nelson's chances either.

 

Get a grip Sweet Pea. Did Duran win titles at a weight less than 135? Was the 135 title his first? Did he spend the majority of his career there? Certainly the prime and peak of it? Now ask yourself the same questions of Nelson. How many fights did Nelson have at 135 again? How many did Duran have?

That was just silly mate.

 

JT probably means that if you spend the majority of your prime at a certain weight, you are to be considered a natural there. That's pretty much the definition I use for natural.

 

Hearns looked a natural light heavyweight too, but we all know it was at least 21 pounds north of his greatest weight. Sometimes looks can be deceiving. Arguello looked at home at 140 vs Pryor, but we all know it was a jump too many. Sometimes we just have to deal with the simple facts of the matter.

 

You will find with most the higher they go the more vulnerable they get. Some peak at a weight one up from their initial title tho, like Arguello and possibly Hearns IMHO. Mate, this is why these guys are the greatest and frequent the top 25 ever. Again, bottom line - Nelson didn't do it!

That's a Sweet Pea special claiming Armstrong is better at 147 than 135. Some might even claim his best was at 126.

I have little doubt Nelson could have been a fine fine lightweight, but lets not even begin to claim it his best weight.

Whitaker moved up from 135 never to return a little short of 2 years after he fought Nelson. Nelson fought a full 6 years after this. Why didn't Nelson move up then? (after Whitaker went)

Want to retract that statement??