How good was Duran - P4P GOAT?

JT. Thats why I said Nelson measured up to Whitaker physically, yet wasn't a natural lightweight. He never fought at lightweight for any lengthy period of time whatsoever to be considered a natural at that weight. And he moved straight back down to super-featherweight right after he lost to Whitaker.

Here is my take on fighters moving up in weight. Thomas Hearns started off at welterweight and ended up at cruiserweight. What was his natural weight?. I'd probably say Hearns was a natural welterweight who grew into a natural middleweight. His height certainly was the main the reason he could carry the weight. Had Hearns been 5' 6" he would never have been able to move up as effectively. He'd probably have looked like Tony Galento and his speed would have evaporated.

Marvin Hagler was a middleweight throughout his professional career. Yet he met Hearns who had previously fought at two divisions below. Was Hagler bigger than Hearns just because he faced a fighter moving up in weight. Nope, and I'm not just talking about height either, overall frame.

4 years ago Toney fought Holyfield. And I'll put my hand on my heart here, I picked Toney to win. Many people on another forum I was on at the time picked Holyfield "Too big and strong for Toney" they said. When they gave their prediction it was all centered around Holyfield being too big and strong for Toney. Want to know what fooled them all, Toney had previously fought at middleweight, which was his best division arguably. Personally speaking, couldn't care if Toney had previously fought at featherweight years before sharing a ring with Holyfield. I never seen much of a size difference, and on the night Toney looked solid up against Holyfield and in shape at 217lbs. He never had any problem with Holyfield's size, and ended up with by stoppage.

 

You've basically verified my whole debate Robbi. I won't reply in depth because i think it's sorted really.

 

Top5.

 

Nelson. Featherweight, super-featherweight, lightweight.

Whitaker. Lightweight, light-welterweight, welterweight, light-middleweight.

Whitaker v Nelson, lightweight. Looked the same size or at least a sheet of paper difference between them. I can't see anyone making a case for Whitaker having a size advantage on the night. The bottom line here is, they looked like fighters from the same division as they matched up the same physically.

Not a "good big man beats good little man" scenario.

Agree?

 

Not one bit to be honest. Whitaker had the obvious size advantage over Nelson. Pryor had it over Arguello. Hagler had it over Hearns. Tyson had it over Spinks. Spinks would have had it over Hagler if it happened. Nelson had it over Fenech.

All these names are great, follow?

 

No. Nelson didn't even venture in the division when Whitaker vacated in 92, so a natural at the weight he was not. Clearly. :huh

 

Where is the obvious size advantage?. I fail to see it. Are you telling me Whitaker was bigger than Nelson when they fought on the night?.

Hagler had a size advantage over Hearns. Disagree entirely. Why, because Hearns previously fought two divisions below?. That seems to fool you, not me. Hearns even went past middleweight, and you previously said he looked like a natural light-heavyweight.

Its all about on the night I'm talking about, two fighters matching up physically.

Toney's fight against Holyfield is a good example as well, which I previously mentioned. Comparable size on the night, and I failed to see how Holyfield was bigger and stronger.

 

Barkley seemed to get physically stronger as a LHW, oddly enough, at least for Hearns. Perhaps it was just has style -he forgot about the jab and his defense had devolved into a "I'm coming in with my hands up, your shots be damned" -Barkley would psyche himself up to get and give punishment. Neither Van Horn nor Hearns could deal with that.

Iran's "devolved" style seemed to work better for him against Hearns.

 

JT. I'll ask you this. De La Hoya started off at 130lbs, and ended up at 147lbs going up against Trinidad and Quartey. However, Trinidad ended up going past welterweight and fought at middleweight and KO'd Joppy. He carried the weight better past welterweight than De La Hoya did, and measured up much better to Hopkins as well.

Trinidad v De La Hoya at welterweight?. Do you see a size difference on the night?. Ive never heard one journalist or fan saying it.

I don't see a size difference at all between De La Hoya and Trinidad on the night.

 

Exactly, the great big man beats the great little man.

Which doesn't mean he was better at 147, not at all.

I'm not worried what the scale says.

Your words mate, look

Whitaker left not that long after in the context of their careers. Nelson had plenty of time to go again.

Fact is Nelsons rematch win over Fenech around the time Whitaker was gone from 135 was an enormous win, yet he still stayed at 130. Nelson was 32 at the time of Whitaker and we could say he was on the decline even then, so why did he go up in the first place? You could make a good argument on this whole thing (Nelson 135) but you IMO have it arse about and are barking up the wrong tree.


Still the bottom line is that Nelson was far from his greatest at 135. I still give Whitaker enormous credit for beating Nelson there, Hagler gets big credit for Hearns, Tyson for Spinks, Pryor for Arguello yada yada, but this still isn't quite enough for you. I can't give anymore sorry, we've got to retain some balance here.

I'd be interested on SS's view of my debating meriot actually, as i have the utmost respect for his opinion even tho i might be on a fine line regarding his views.

 

I'll bow out of our little debate on this one Robbi, there's nothing more i can say mate.

 

You could well be right mate. My only defense is that Hearns was substancially more past it than Iran. IMO if Barkley was born to fight at 147 - 154 and faced peak Tommy then Hearns would prevail given the P4P differences.

 

Look at my last post, I wanna see what you come up with on that one.

 

Toney was only solid and in shape from a relative perspective --compared to the potato sack he resembled later.

Question: The Holyfield that Toney challenges is the 1993 version. Who wins?

 

Just how great was Trinidad at 147 tho Robbi? How would DLH go vs Leonard or Hearns here? You've said this week he loses to both. Is Joppy great? The near great little man beat the million miles from great big man. Great effort by DLH vs Trinidad, but it's a lot different than Whitaker - Nelson. Whitaker is top 5 135 ever mate. Felix isn't close at 147.