How good was earnie shavers?

And "always in the fight" is operative here. Foreman was NOT in the fight at Kinshasa after round five, and various commentators during Bob Sheridan's live call echoed that. But Earnie was certainly in it with Ali all the way through, and at a more advanced age 33. Big George was also done after Young got him to expend himself from the outset of round seven. Foreman had nothing left for the five round stretch.

 

That's more because Ali was far past his best by that point. Look at Shavers by the end of his fights with Holmes, especially the second one, to see his stamina issues. Had absolutely nothing left. He couldn't even raise his hands anymore by the time the ref stopped the second fight.

 

Their rematch does exist, and although Jimmy had to get off the deck, he was robbed by a draw, according to all accounts. Young was a slugger's worst nightmare, yet Lyle faced him twice so Ron could better his boxing. Lyle was never afraid to look bad.

 

Larry was exhausted too. In round two, he unloaded 60 of those same jabs he pounded Ocasio down with. Shavers also floored Holmes in round nine, but with a shot that curled over the back of Larry's left arm and shoulder. Initially, it looked from the ABC camera that it connected with the left side of Holmes' face, but 0.25 speed on the YouTube replay shows it fell short of Larry's head. Good thing for Holmes that thing didn't land flush.

Grueling pace for both. Larry's arm was famously impaired for Norton, while Berbick's only objective in a shutout loss was simply to go the distance for breaking a stoppage streak by Holmes. (I predicted exactly that to coworkers.) Earnie lasted longer in their rematch than ten other challengers, through a grueling pace for both. Scribes believed that after Weaver and Shavers 2, Larry was about finished, with his legs supposed to be rapidly aging, and his own stamina widely questioned.

Holmes only went twice with Shavers and Michael Spinks. For Earnie to go into double digit rounds both times with the version of Larry he faced without ever going down is commendable.

 

Great, thanks. Still hope that it may one day surface for general viewing.

That Young had only 10 fights going into the first match of course has to be accounted for - but still some credit to Earnie for getting the definitive shots home on such a slickster.

In the rematch, Earnie was still able to hurt and drop a then, 18 pro fight, Young. IIRC, I’ve read that Shavers dropped Young with a body shot and that it was a solid/hard KD - but like you, I’ve also read that Young was ultimately robbed.

Fair to guess that Earnie was probably floundering due to his own stamina issues from at least the mid way point - and after shooting his load for an early round KO - the quick KO was often Shaver’s primary focus without consideration for the later rounds and reserving himself for same.

Several years later Shavers did a terrific job pacing himself when he fought Ali over the long haul of 15 rounds.

 

I feel like calling Shavers overrated and hating Rocky Marciano's resume (both valid) are two of the more notable developments I've seen here recently.

I don't hate the Wilder comparison, I'd have trouble finding 50 heavyweights I favor over him. But 20 is pretty easy. I think some of the guys Shavers' kayoed and hurt are still better than him like Ken Norton for example. Shavers fought Norton well past his best. Norton never looked good after Shavers and retired looking badly against Cobb and getting taken out again by Cooney. I think the fight with Holmes was the last gasp of greatness Norton had.

Ellis went 2-4-1 and retired 2 years after his loss to Shavers.

Jimmy Young was in his 11th fight when he lost to Shavers. Shavers was 42-2 with 41 KOs while Jimmy Young was 7-3, coming off a loss and had just fought his first ten rounder. He accounted for himself much better in the second fight and would have done better if the two fought again any time from 1976-1978.

I still put a lot of stock into ringing Larry Holmes and beating up a compromised Ali. The shot he stung Holmes with is regarded as one of the heaviest punches landed to not produce a knockout. He really put a lot of mileage on Ali. He hit a lot of people very hard and he was a problem for many elite heavyweights which makes me think he could have been a matchup nightmare for many heavyweights historically. I feel like people on here used to say Shavers would annihilate "chinny" "newer" fighters like Lennox and Wlad. Well, I don't see it but I think he could have really knocked out a lot of this current crop and Shavers would have been awesome in any era.

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Foreman had trouble with pacing after Peralta, but unlike George, Earnie did go into bouts like Clark I and Ali expecting to hear the final bell. He also paced himself with Tiger Williams, varying the power of his shots. Foreman always swung for the fences.

What Shavers had were arms like 50 pound clubs, and a body which didn't support extended bouts. Highly intelligent, he knew his limitations. (He got out of a bad contract with Don King by observing the technicality that King had misspelled his first name as "Ernie." DK being DK, this actually delighted Don.)

Being power oriented, he didn't always train hard, and typically got away with it. But from Clark I to Holmes II, a span of a dozen bouts from 1976 to 1979, he did train with diligence. He also had a good streak after Cobb until Ellis, which included Jeff Sims and Joe Bugner. However, as Norton observed during Cobb-Shavers, Earnie was now leading with his hands, rather than his feet. Set and point your feet first, then unload. (Feinting punches with the feet is also a great way to unbalance and test faster opponents for their reactions. Use the classic guides by Haislet and Walsh for how to position the feet before a punch.)

 

@Anubis (EDIT - I forgot to hit reply to your post).

Foreman was more fundamentally sound early in his career...tracking well.

He was more disciplined, tight with offence and better paced against Chuvalo than he was a few years later.

He also improved from Peralta 1 to 2 - and Peralta was a very good, durable fighter. Both fights were terrific learning experiences for young George.

Quite simply, the KOs eventually came all too easily and quickly - less rounds under the belt with Foreman also falling in love with and deferring too much to his power on its own.

Williams was a great win for Earnie but he was gassing badly and almost out himself at one point. Just per my observation, Earnie turned it around with a terrific counter right hand that appeared to take all the steam out of Williams.

A very notable feature to the Cobb bout was the traction issues with the canvas, both men slipping and sliding at different points. That had to take from Earnie properly leveraging his shots and likely tapped his stamina even more trying to hold his feet properly.

During one of Earnie’s fights (Clark II perhaps?), Jerry Quarry noted that Shavers was the only fighter he knew of who lifted weights.

So, besides being naturally heavily muscled, it seems Shavers contributed further to a muscle bound state with his own attention to lifting weights - which, of course, was a big no no among trainers back then.

Foreman vs Lyle often gets touted as the best HW brawl - but Shavers vs Lyle was an hellacious punch out from go to whoa. Too bad we don’t have clearer footage of the fight than what we do have.

I rate the aforementioned fight more highly than Foreman vs Lyle, and I rate Liston vs Williams 1 (and perhaps 2) as being better also. Again, just imo.

Ken Norton of course was so successfully applied in HS at other sports as to have had the Norton Rule created.

In HS, Shavers himself was apparently multi applied successfully in several sports also - including the High Jump, IIRC.

Appearances don’t always tell the story but, physique wise, Shavers did look like he could knock down a high rise building with a single punch. He appears to have had notably large fists also.

In one old boxing magazine I had, the author described Shavers as looking like a Mongolian Warrior - I thought that was a great description.

I had another old mag in which they interviewed Shavers’ sparring partners...with accompanying photos - post sparring.

My god, the sparring partners looked like they’d all been hit by a Mack Truck. One guy, with eyes half rolled up, had cotton buds shoved into each nostril with blood all over his shirt.

Could you ever be paid enough money to cop that? I don’t think so. Lol.

 

This is a response to JRR Anubis, whose novel was so long the board refused to even allow me to quote it, on the grounds my response exceeded the word limit.

I’m not surprised I had to run through 87 paragraphs before we touched on anything other than power. Are we supposed to be impressed with Shavers wobbling a 35-year-old, post-Manila Ali? There are excuses for every Shavers defeat, but no mention of Foreman coming off a near 18-month professional layoff to do with Lyle what Shavers couldn’t.

Anybody want to name the long list of Jerry Quarry KO1 victims? Anybody fancy Quarry to do Foreman in one?

There is no mention made here of overall power - for good reason. Foreman could knock a man out with either hand. He debatably hit harder than Shavers with any single, given shot - he very undebatably demonstrated more power across the board, able to turn & end fights routinely from either side.

“…Youthful George barely had a KO after round five…”

No **** no one was surviving longer than five rounds that’s why.

Shavers was not a good fighter. There’s a good reason 85% or so of your opus talks about his power. He was vulnerable in all other categories of Boxing. Consistently a great example of how over-hyped a big punch can make a man.

 

Excellent post.

During Shavers-Williams, Norton did criticize Earnie for lifting weights. Marciano also lifted weights, but did resistance training from childhood, determined to be the strongest kid in the neighborhood, and he was, but he'd often get embarrassed if caught working out. Chuvalo also was into bodybuilding early on and really built himself up.

Hercules Weaver was forced to take a hiatus as WBA Champion because he injured himself experimenting with weights. He's always emphasized that his muscularity is a genetic gift. Indeed, his body was the same at 202 for Holmes I as it was decades later at 234 for Holmes II. One didn't expect that kind of skill, stamina and power with his muscularity, but after Norton told him to apply himself, he became a quality competitor. After being stopped in a single round by Dokes and Bonecrusher, went the distance with both. Stopped Stan Ward twice after losing a decision to him. Got off the deck to knock out Mercado in the next round, raising questions about what might have happened if referee Joey Curtis hadn't been so admittedly spooked by Mancini-Kim. Jabbed his way to a lopsided decision over LeDoux in Bloomington, suckered Carl Williams into a trap off the ropes (look at how Mike has his left arm cocked low before unloading that hook), and one punched John Tate with a hook, then Coetzee with a single right in consecutive bouts during the Championship Rounds. He really did win in a variety of ways. Obviously, I'm a big fan of Weaver's.


What you omitted from Earnie's bout with Tiger is that he caught Roy with that long right while leaning against the ropes as Williams moved in for the kill. Ali needed lots of those to down Foreman. Shavers needed only one to turn around round ten for the last second knockout in a bout he had already won on the cards, banking the first several rounds with rights to the body of the big man. (Tiger was a modern sized durable super heavyweight at 6'5" and 230 pounds, without steroids.)

That he was so good at the high jump explains something about his power development from a plyometric perspective. Growing up on a farm, he repeatedly hoisted bales of hay with a whole body burst of leverage, as did Max Baer. (Frazier did it with slabs of meat in a butcher shop after also growing up on a farm.)

Indeed, traction was an issue for both in Cobb-Shavers. Tex's immense physical strength forced Earnie back and on the ring perimeter, yet the only one to slip the the canvas was Randy. Both may have been wearing leather soles at a time when there was transitioning to rubber bottoms on the feet. (Leather soles were a huge problem for LeDoux with Weaver, and also for Cuevas with Hearns.)

Stallone told Shavers, "C'mon Earnie, show me what you got!" Shavers did, hooking Sly to the stomach, forcing Stallone to the bathroom to throw up and costing Earnie a role in Rocky II. (Duran was hired instead. Again, Sly complained about Roberto's power and Duran scoffed, "Maricon! I barely hit him!" But leverage was automatic with El Cholo, who managed to keep the role anyway. Rocky II was filmed in late 1978, between DeJesus III and Palomino, when he was competing regularly and in invincible peak condition. Shavers was also a nightmare at this time, gearing up for Norton. Stallone was a masochist, but also working so hard that he needed B12 shots to keep going.)

Foreman didn't just fall in love with his power, he also abhorred competition which extended him. At the end of Rocky I, Apollo Creed whispers, "No rematch! No rematch!" This was taken directly from what Foreman said to Levi Forte when wrapped up with Forte at the end of ten rounds. Meanwhile, Earnie was extended into ten rounds three times from November 1974 to April 1975, including back to backs with Stallings and Young. Then, he experienced punching himself out in Denver against Lyle in his Kinshasa, learning his absolute limits, extremely valuable experience for Clark I, Tiger Williams, then Ali, and Holmes I & II.

Thus Shavers had a background for Ali which Foreman desperately needed and didn't get before he lost the title.

Lyle was also incredibly smart and came along well, losing to veteran Jerry Quarry early, taking himself 12 rounds in back to backs against Ellis and Bonavena, then losing his first one to Young right before challenging former sparring mate Ali in a brilliant effort. Like Earnie, Ron got everything he could out of his career, where George avoided resistant competition that extended him.

No matter how hard one trains, he has to compete into condition. Ali did this through a great 1975 campaign leading up to Manila. He didn't apply Kinshasa level training for Frazier III, but fighting Foreman, Wepner, Lyle and Bugner II made up for it. He wouldn't be at Kinshasa level again until only six weeks after Young, when he could've dispatched Dunn at any time. This is when Foreman should've rematched Ali after knocking out Lyle, as George would've again gotten stopped and retired for good. I don't believe Manila permanently diminished Muhammad because of Dunn. Nobody could've beaten Ali in Munich, but after Clark I, Shavers was already prepared to give him hell. Too bad Ali's preparation for Dunn was wasted on a nobody. Only eight days after Dunn, Muhammad actually looked skinny in comparison to Gorilla Monsoon at the Philadelphia Spectrum.

Ali was in great shape for Inoki. Too bad Antonio was a cheap shooting, leg destroying A-A-hole. Sammartino would've done business with Muhammad (and would've had to, coming off his broken neck with Stan Hansen). He'd have left Ali (and they were huge fans of one another) with intact legs and enough planting power to hurt Norton in their rubber match.

Manila didn't diminish Ali's potential, Inoki did, then Shavers actually shortened the GOAT's life span. (Muhammad's parents both died at 77, Cassius Clay, Sr. suddenly while walking out of a store, and Odessa was also fine until a stroke disabled her the month she turned 77. Brother Rahman is now a healthy 80. If he'd retired before Shavers, Muhammad might also have become an octogenarian in good health, except for his gluttony.

 

1 Ali
2 Louis
3 Lewis
4 Marciano
5 Foreman
6 Wlad
7 Holmes
8 Liston
9 Frazier
10 Holyfield
11 Dempsey
12 Bowe
13 Walcott
14 Charles
15 Vitali
16 Patterson
17 Archie Moore
18 Mike Tyson
19 Max Schmeling
20 Max Baer
21 Ingo
22 Tunney
23 Norton
24 Harold Johnson
25 Tyson Fury
26 Usyk
27 AJ
28 Ellis
29 Bonavena
30 Quarry
31 Povetkin
32 Jack Johnson
33 Wills
34 Langford
35 Lyle
36 Terrell
37 Sharkey
38 Joe Jeanette
39 Sam Mcvea
40 Braddock
41 Rahman
42 Tua
43 Bruno
44 Terrell
45 Laughran
46 Bivins
47 Layne
48 Machen
49 Folley
50 Moorer
Could list a few more I’d take over him but I think he fits nicely into that 45-60 range. It’s not a knock he was a good contender
This is no particular order just 50 I’d say w better records.

 

I love the story about the lawsuit with King. Earnie won, representing himself I believe. And King was impressed, couldn’t even get mad.

 

Good enough to be in the contender mix, not good enough to beat any of the champions..................or the top, top contenders

 

I think I would personally take Shavers over some of those guys. Machen, Layne, Braddock, Bruno and Terrell are all a level below shavers for me even though Bruno and Terrell managed to get title fragments and Braddock got the title off a lethargic Max Baer. That being said, this list is valid and shows that Shavers is probably closer to top 50 than top 25.

 

Yeah I wouldn’t argue any list that him in the 40-50 range once u hit that range many names r interchangeable.