How Good was Ernesto Marcel?

roughdiamond · Apr 26, 2020

Tin_Ribs said: ↑

rough and M_M have said most of what I'd say tbh, and very well at that.

Wee Hank is the only other feather I've seen on film who I might give more than a 50 per cent chance of beating Marcel more often than not. Obviously that insane level and style of pressure can go a long way to stymying even the most gifted and skilled of boxer punchers, but the pre-prime Marcel was more or less even with the pre-prime Duran, probably a shade behind, at the time of the baffling stoppage. They both look great in that fight if a bit raw but it's the closest indicator imo to what a fight with Armstrong might look like albeit not like for like. I certainly don't see Henry running Ernesto out if the ring based on it, not even remotely. Like @roughdiamond said, Marcel himself was very dirty with his head and elbows when he wanted to be, he really mugged the outstanding Gomez with those tactics in a rather Pedroza/Duranesque fashion. Armstrong could mark up too, as the Ambers and Zivic fights showed. It's more than fair enough to pick Hank to win, but I wouldn't make him a strong favourite.

Pep lost rounds to the likes of Bartolo, Terranova, Wright etc, he's not tooling Marcel by a long way. Very close fight imo. Pep sharper defensively, both reflexively and in terms of his range of defensive techniques; Marcel a bit more fluid, offensively dynamic and inclined to segway defence into attack. Both with astonishing footwork, stamina and balance, range of pivots and shifts etc, both with voluminous offensive output. Pep the better jabber and slightly tidier fighter in general, Marcel a tad quicker of hand and the more spiteful puncher. Both capable of being under handed and dirty.

Again, it's only two fights out of a large field of experience but Saddler had real trouble with a fast, mobile and skilled boxer-puncher like Elorde, although Elorde being a lefty also helped. I don't think Flash was as good as Marcel either, though a great fighter. Saddler, though irrevocable was immense at equalizing speed and skill disadvantages with his range, power and fouling. I just get the feeling that he'd really need a ref willing to let him get away with murder to even the scales against Marcel, and Marcel wasn't exactly a shrinking violet. He'd come out worse than Saddler probably in a prolonged battle of rough-housing but would let Sandy know he was there in that regard, I think, while seeking to use his other advantages in longer bursts in between not allowing Saddler to run him over in the trenches.

Saldivar was monstrous and is one of my all-time favourites, but I think his fight with Laguna might be key. That was a razor-close fight, albeit with the shorter distance favouring Laguna imo. And Laguna and Marcel had a lot in common stylewise. Laguna faster and more her herky-jerky in approach but Marcel more complete in terms of his full range of tools I'd say and a bit better fighter overall. It's not as though Saldivar completely ran through Winstone either in their first two fights, he spotted a lot of the early rounds warming through the gears and only really ran over Howard in the last four rounds or so where Winstone crucially lacked the punch to deter him on top of being gradually worn down from Saldivar's body attack and heavy straight left. Winstone was marvellous and had a better jab than Marcel and had at least comparable speed of hand and foot enough not to be outclassed in that department, more consistently defensively responsible against hooks. Marcel though was again just more talented and complete. A harder, two-fisted puncher, great stamina in the championship rounds as shown when he crucially rallied against another Saldivaresque late rounds cyborg in Arguello. And better at ditching the body shots and straight punches that set Winstone up to lose the war while winning the battle so to speak.

I'd probably favour Marcel over every featherweight since him, cleanly enough so with Pedroza and Fenech being the biggest hurdles, Fenech more so. It was the above h2h comparisons that got my attention.
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Brilliant post mate. Marcel is an absolute nightmare for any Feather, and beats most of them. He outpunched and outboxed Shibata, and you don't do that unless you're a monster, as he was so fast and skilled and explosive. Really showed his class 'level' there.

George Crowcroft · Apr 26, 2020

Tin_Ribs said: ↑

rough and M_M have said most of what I'd say tbh, and very well at that.

Wee Hank is the only other feather I've seen on film who I might give more than a 50 per cent chance of beating Marcel more often than not. Obviously that insane level and style of pressure can go a long way to stymying even the most gifted and skilled of boxer punchers, but the pre-prime Marcel was more or less even with the pre-prime Duran, probably a shade behind, at the time of the baffling stoppage. They both look great in that fight if a bit raw but it's the closest indicator imo to what a fight with Armstrong might look like albeit not like for like. I certainly don't see Henry running Ernesto out if the ring based on it, not even remotely. Like @roughdiamond said, Marcel himself was very dirty with his head and elbows when he wanted to be, he really mugged the outstanding Gomez with those tactics in a rather Pedroza/Duranesque fashion. Armstrong could mark up too, as the Ambers and Zivic fights showed. It's more than fair enough to pick Hank to win, but I wouldn't make him a strong favourite.

Pep lost rounds to the likes of Bartolo, Terranova, Wright etc, he's not tooling Marcel by a long way. Very close fight imo. Pep sharper defensively, both reflexively and in terms of his range of defensive techniques; Marcel a bit more fluid, offensively dynamic and inclined to segway defence into attack. Both with astonishing footwork, stamina and balance, range of pivots and shifts etc, both with voluminous offensive output. Pep the better jabber and slightly tidier fighter in general, Marcel a tad quicker of hand and the more spiteful puncher. Both capable of being under handed and dirty.

Again, it's only two fights out of a large field of experience but Saddler had real trouble with a fast, mobile and skilled boxer-puncher like Elorde, although Elorde being a lefty also helped. I don't think Flash was as good as Marcel either, though a great fighter. Saddler, though irrevocable was immense at equalizing speed and skill disadvantages with his range, power and fouling. I just get the feeling that he'd really need a ref willing to let him get away with murder to even the scales against Marcel, and Marcel wasn't exactly a shrinking violet. He'd come out worse than Saddler probably in a prolonged battle of rough-housing but would let Sandy know he was there in that regard, I think, while seeking to use his other advantages in longer bursts in between not allowing Saddler to run him over in the trenches.

Saldivar was monstrous and is one of my all-time favourites, but I think his fight with Laguna might be key. That was a razor-close fight, albeit with the shorter distance favouring Laguna imo. And Laguna and Marcel had a lot in common stylewise. Laguna faster and more her herky-jerky in approach but Marcel more complete in terms of his full range of tools I'd say and a bit better fighter overall. It's not as though Saldivar completely ran through Winstone either in their first two fights, he spotted a lot of the early rounds warming through the gears and only really ran over Howard in the last four rounds or so where Winstone crucially lacked the punch to deter him on top of being gradually worn down from Saldivar's body attack and heavy straight left. Winstone was marvellous and had a better jab than Marcel and had at least comparable speed of hand and foot enough not to be outclassed in that department, more consistently defensively responsible against hooks. Marcel though was again just more talented and complete. A harder, two-fisted puncher, great stamina in the championship rounds as shown when he crucially rallied against another Saldivaresque late rounds cyborg in Arguello. And better at ditching the body shots and straight punches that set Winstone up to lose the war while winning the battle so to speak.

I'd probably favour Marcel over every featherweight since him, cleanly enough so with Pedroza and Fenech being the biggest hurdles, Fenech more so. It was the above h2h comparisons that got my attention.
Click to expand...

**** me, talk about thorough! Brilliant post.

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How Good was Ernesto Marcel?

roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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How Good was Ernesto Marcel?

roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member