How good was Grebs comp?

Jersyey joe,i agree,Greb would be a 'match' for many great lt heavies.
What made me a bit wary was greb saying after Tunney beat him bad in the last fight (?) that gene was now too big for him.(181.) Was Harry being sportsmanlike or was he on the decline by then?

ps: hagler and hearns are both true atgs,legends,but both get beaten by many greats at 175. I think monzon would do better than hagler at 175.

 

On a side note, Harry Greb and Gene Tunney might have a case for being the two best light heavies ever put in the same ring.

 

You aint wrong...

 

Greb was only a few pounds over the 160 pound middleweight limit...At 5.8" ,was always able to make the 160 pound limit if necassary...It was his amazing handspeed and speed of foot etc, that made him compete with bigger men.....

 

Very few accounts of Harry being clearly out punched, in matches which he failed to closely contest, surface when his record is more closely scrutinized and broken down.

The consensus was that Greb won his final two fights with Flowers, and probably should have finished as champion. (He weighed 159 for the final match of his career, just a couple months after turning 32. He probably could have made that limit indefinitely.)

Only Flowers beat him very controversially after his fifth match with Tunney (who otherwise seems to have beaten him cleanly only in fight three of their series). Tommy Gibbons beat him decisively on November 11, 1915 (with both weighing 158), and on May 15, 1920. Then reigning MW Champion George Chip is reported to have cleanly bested a more embryonic Greb (apparently nervous fighting the reigning titleholder) on October 18, 1915 (in Pittsburgh) and June 26, 1916. Tommy, Gene and George seem to be the only three opponents with more than one single clear cut triumph over Harry.

February 25, 1918, Mike O'Dowd beat him decisively in Harry's first title shot. Soldier Bartfield may have gotten the best of him on November 2, 1917, although there's some dispute here. If true though, this would be the one time a significantly lighter opponent was able to do this to Greb. (Greb-162, Bartfield-147-1/2.) On December 7, 1914, veteran Joe Borrell floored and beat him over six. A much bigger, more mature and experienced Joe Chip knocked him out in two on November 29, 1913, and a much more experienced Harvey Evans evidently got the best of him in just his third outing on October 11, 1913.

Summing up, there may be a grand total of 10 instances where there's virtually no dispute that Harry was beaten by punches. (I'm excluding the early Chip knockout of course, which is beyond any possibility of question, the DQ loss to Norfolk, which probably should have gone to Greb when he was butted out of the ring in round two, and the broken arm induced loss to Graves, which of course was not a defeat induced by being punched.)

How long might Greb have gone on with fully intact vision in both eyes? His legs were observed to be not quite what they once had been during the Walker bout, yet he handled Mickey pretty conclusively. He may have been able to hold onto the middleweight title until the 1930s (as Walker himself did). At no time in his career did he ever weigh more than a couple pounds under the light heavyweight limit. With two good eyes, he might have compensated for diminished legs with sheer weight of experience. How long could he have then gone on?

 

Thanks for that intriguing post Duo.
I will just state that the more Greb is analysed the more outstanding/unique he seems to be.
I will leave it to others with more knowlege of greb to state how long they think he could have lasted after flowers,but ive read enough to know that this man is the best ever 'modern' gloved champion for dominance.
Its scary that some of his losses must have come from 'overactivity'?
Whaddya say?

 

Very concise background to Harry Greb...As I posted before I met the 55 year old Soldier Bartfield in 1945. He playfully tussled with me...Bartfield was once a tough opponent in the 1920s...He boxed Benny Leonard also,and Greb numerous times..
Even if Greb at 32 ,didn't have the eye blindness ,he had to have slowed up,when he retired after the Flowers fight in 1926...After 300 bouts,and the normal aging process,he was way past his peak in 1926 against a tough,and wily southpaw, Tiger Flowers....Aside from his ko loss to the 15 pound heavier and experienced Joe Chip in 1913,Greb was virtually almost unbeatable ...

 

Personal anecdotes about meeting authentic figures like Bartfield are what really make this forum come alive.

Sometimes, I look at how long Britton, nine years Harry's senior, kept going, almost to age 45, and wonder what kind of longevity potential Harry truly had. The smaller Walker was able to compete with world class heavyweights while in his 30s. Harry had a better chin than Britton, and might have sustained a competitive speed advantage for a few more years against larger opponents. He doesn't likely dethrone Loughran for the title at 175, but could former victims Slattery and Rosenbloom succeed Tommy with Greb in their way? Certainly, wear, tear and the aging process take their toll, but would the enormous experience he'd acquired enable him to compensate? (As we've continued this discussion, the question which created this thread and poll really becomes absurdly satiristic, doesn't it?)

 

Yes the question is really absolete and as you put it absurd...Like posting " Was Ray Robinson a great fighter "?.The answer is self-evident,methinks.

 

No you don't, you just have your own spin on the visual evidence. Anyone can just claim "They look like **** to me" about anyone, but that doesn't constitute evidence of anything.

 

Better than Charles and Moore?

 

I think their was such a great difference in Jack Britton's boxing style as opposed to Harry Greb's windmill style...Britton was a great stand up boxer, who conserved his energy, jabbing and outhinking his opponents...
This style of fighting enabled Britton,to have about 340 bouts til the ripe old age of forty five...He was kod only ONCE in his first year of boxing...Amazing feat....
Harry Greb as we know went all out from the first bell...His defense was his offense, throwing punches from every angle, without letup...On defense, when needed he was bouncing in every direction feverishly,and was very difficult to hit solidly, as all his opponents attested to...
This whirlwind style depletes your body's energy, and must effect you in the long run...Astounding that Greb had 300 fights, against much larger men trying to rough up little [5.8"] greb in the clinches...
summing up- Britton's boxing style was made for longevity in the ring, while Harry Greb's style of constant attack,had to eventually taken it's toll...Even on my P4P best fighter ever, everything considered ...b.b.

 

Technically, it was ND, but reported as a newspaper win for O'Dowd. Source documentation to the contrary would be appreciated, as the Pittsburgh Post and all other represented newpapers are supposed to have called it in O'Dowd's favor. (If you can reverse and debunk this, so much the better for Harry!)

 

Many newspapers thought O'Dowd won, but not all thought it was "decisive." Many reported that O'Dowd beat him only "by a shade." The NY Times reported that it was a fairly even fight, with only O'Dowd's left jab giving him a slight edge.


See this page:
http://books.google.com/books?id=kU...d=0CD4Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=o'dowd greb&f=false