How good was Gunboat Smith?

I candidly admit to knowing little about Weinert, but I believe he had won only one of his last 5 contests, and was 33/34 when he met Smith.
His results against Firpo would suggest that you are on the money regarding his training ethic.

 

When he first met Gunboat Smith he was only 19 and lost the ND fight. They had a rematch that same year and he beat Gunboat. At this point Weinert was still fairly highly touted despite his blowout against Jack Dillon which was chalked up to him being rushed, inexperienced, and young. They met again three years later and again Weinert won but at this point Smith was really starting to decline.

 

I think that there is a good case for saying that Smith was the best white contender of Jack Johnsons title reign.

 

McCarty?

 

McCarthy is the Ike Ibeabuchi of that era.

He died, probably with his key acomplishments still ahead of him.

 

The contemporary acount that I have read, suggest that Carpintier was legitimately winning the fight and that Smith likley fouled out.

What makes you think that Smith was robbed?

 

Carpentier was leading on points but shortly before he claimed a foul Gunboat Smith had started unloading heavy leather on Carp (which he never liked) and was well on his way to not only working himself back into the fight but seriously hurting Carp. Smith landed a punch which dropped Carpentier and thinking Carpentier was ducking low as he sometimes did he fired a punch that either grazed the very top of Carps head or missed entirely (reports vary). Suddenly Carpentier's manager jumped into the ring (for which several people felt Carp should have been disqualified) screaming and claiming a foul. Then Carpentier put on an acting display of hysterics in which he held his head in his hands and swooned around the ring which everyone agreed was a fairly pathetic attempt at stage craft. The referee then disqualified Smith despite admitting that the punch he had POSSIBLY landed did no damage and gave several differing reasons as to why he didnt disqualify Carpentier when Descamps jumped into the ring (ranging from "he didnt see Descamps prior to DQing Smith" to "Smith fouled first so he was DQd first". Upon viewing films of the fight several news reports were issued that it was an out and out robbery and argued once again that the punch Smith was DQd for was a mere afterthought that had been thrown before he realized what had happened, and if it landed at all, which was a continued point of debate, it did absolutely no damage and carried no force. They also agreed that Smith was starting to put some serious heat on Carpentier and it looked that Carpentier took the easy way out. Keep in mind that Carpentier and his manager had a history of this kind of behavior when a loss seemed immenent (Papke, Klaus, Tunney, Siki, Smith, etc etc). It was kind of a scandal and even the british who were wild over Carpentier admitted that the whole thing was an embarrassing scene.

 

Smith was pretty good, probably better than Moran, but also just on a par with Dillon, Levinsky, Coffey(who was no journeyman) Carpentier and McCarthy. Probably the equal of Willard too, whom I think currently very overrated.

 

Willard may be overrated now, Im not sure about that as I think he was better than hes given credit for but wasnt much of a fighter, if that makes sense, but his being overrated is a far lesser crime than how overrated Carpentier is.

 

Not getting into a Carp overrated thread here except to agree that he was one hyped up dude at the time.
Willard beat Johnson in a fight that conditions favored him in every way, held his own with a green McCarthy and beat the also overrated Moran, not much IMO. In a 15 round fight to a decision I wouldn't rate him top 100 AT Hw's. Remember Smith, McMahon, Rodel, Dempsey etc.

 

I think Willard is very underrated.


Didnt he kill someone in the ring with his powerful right? I dont know any other living think that could muster the beating Dempsey put on Willard

And Willard also had a fight at old age in which he performed an amazing comeback. I forget which fight it was but I will find it

 

No doubt Carpentier got mileage out of his looks and resorted to B-movie acting time and again, but if you consider Gunboat Smith good, you must likewise acknowledge the quality of the Orchid Man.

Smith is known for his strong right, but seemingly also had some boxing skills.

Like so many though, he never had what it took to go all the way.

 

What does Smiths ability have to do with Carpentiers? Ive never said Carpentier was bad. I said he was incredibly overrated. I dont think anyone overrates Smith so if you were trying to draw comparisons I dont really see it. No one claims Smith was great. Many call Carpentier the greatest European fighter and he wasnt, not even close IMO. So in short, I disagree. I dont think stating that Smith was merely "good" somehow validates Carpentier's greatness.

 

True.

By the same token, I also simply acknowledged Carpentier's "quality", never "greatness".

Your campaign vis-à-vis Carpentier adoration is a good contribution.

 

you see this Carpentier adoration back the years but not now, his stellar performances v Wells, Jeannette, Smith too mark him out as a good fighter with other good performances including the Papke and Klaus effords-others such as Sike, Lewis not so. Not many, if any real boxing buffs on the past, rate him in say thr top 20 l/h's or top 30 Euro Hw's or top100 p4p. He has found his place, and it's IMO a notch below Smith who is also rated fairly at this time. Coffey, Levinsky and Dillon-now there's a bunch of underrated fighters from that period, Jeff Clarke too.