Name me the challenger he beat who was superior to Wills or Greb? Name me another heavyweight champion who took off 3 years from defending his championship?
The thing I want to do before I read the other posts is what I did for Vitali Klitschko, and asked others to do. Pick the top ten fighters of Dempsey's era and ask how many did he fight. I think it unfair to start at 1914 as Dempsey was just learning--what would be an amateur career today--so I will only only consider 1918 to 1927, when he was a force in the heavyweight division. And what about Jack Johnson and Sam Langford. Johnson was 40 in 1918 and not fighting top men. He might have been better than some of the top men, but who knows, so I'm knocking him out. Langford also might have been up there, but was past his best and losing a lot, so I'm knocking him out. -------------------------------------------------------------- It seems to me there are six obvious choices that must make any list. 1 & 2--Willard and Fulton. Willard was the incumbent champion, Fulton the top contender for the rising Dempsey. He fought and impressively KO'd these two. 3 & 4--Wills and Godfrey. The two top black challengers in the twenties. Dempsey did not fight these two. 5 & 6--Tunney and Sharkey. The rising young white challengers of the last years of Dempsey's reign. He fought them, losing to Tunney and KO'ing Sharkey. So of the really top men, he fought four of the six and beat three of them by KO's. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Now to fill out the top ten, here are my picks. Firpo--He did have a strong run up to the title, KO'ing Willard, Weinert, and Brennan. Old as he was, Willard had just stopped Floyd Johnson. Weinert would be rated the #3 contender in 1924. Brennan was apparently well thought of, but frankly, looking at his record, it is a trifle hard to see why. Gibbons--I guess has to be put in here, although he seems to have done almost all his fighting at middle and light-heavy, and Miske is about the only top heavy name on his resume. Norfolk--another light-heavy, but good enough to beat Miske twice and hold his own with Greb. Renault--had a good run in 1923 and 1924, and I think one of the better heavies of the Dempsey era. *Greb--a real wild card, as he was the middleweight champion and went around 165. Of course, he proved in the ring to be able to defeat Tunney, Gibbons, Miske, Brennan, and Gunboat Smith, but would he have been considered a reasonable challenger for the heavyweight title? Miske--better than most, but still not as good as Greb, Norfolk, or Gibbons, plus his illness adds another big question mark. Brennan--a notch down from Miske, and really a guy with a rather unimpressive record when put under scrutiny. Carpentier and Levinsky--I think so-so light-heavy champs who were marginal at heavyweight and are outside the top ten. -------------------------------------------------------------- So Dempsey fought six and defeated five of my top ten of his era.
This is rubbish. Greb had beaten, and beaten severely, Brennan, Miske, Tunney and Gibbons... Carpentier would not even attend one of his fights, let alone meet him in the ring, so scared he was of Greb. Greb isn't an ancillary argument here but the second most egregious duck on Dempsey & Co.'s part. Dempsey's title reign was littered with Greb's leftovers. Firpo got the brass ring by defeating an old Willard who was lucky in defeating the rather unremarkable Johnson on a Hail Mary shot. Willard had power in his right and that was about it. Other than the Yankee Stadium Johnson fight, he had only done a few exihibitions since getting shellacked by Jack in 19. Meanwhile, Brennan had been beat FIVE TIMES... 5 TIMES... CINQUE VOLTE... by Greb at the time Dempsey & Co. chose him as a worthy challenger. So the fukk what if Firpo got over on him? It's like playing the Casanova after banging the Town Pump.
I mostly agree, but think you left some of JD's best wins. Miske was a very good fighter. The Gibbons win was a good win. Carpenetier was a good win. Levinsky was a decent win. Brennan was a solid win and Dempsey had to come from behind a bit to beat him. Either Wills or Greb would have been Dempsey's best opponent outside of Tunney. I would say for an ATG Dempsey's resume of wins is on the weak side. Part of that is his own problem due to time off from the Ring.
Miske was an excellent fight. But Dempsey's only emphatic victory over Miske was when Billy was having a serious bout with Bright's Disease, a disorder that manifests in increasingly serious inflamations. Miske was in horrible shape, had just lost his auto dealership and needed quick cash to support his family. Jack obliged. And yes, Miske recovered and posted some decent wins afterward but the disease caught up in it's pattern. For the bout in Benton Harbor, Miske was deathly ill. Refer to Moyle's book on this matter. I would just be repeating what he has stated. Also, Greb had beaten him three times. Too bad Greb had already beaten Gibbons the year before. I am still unsure why this is supposedly a "good win" when the Frog was so afeared of the middleweight champ at the time and was soon blown out by the very raw lightheavy Siki. Carpentier's great claim to fame was result he had turned pre-War, 7 years earlier. The importance of this bout was a complete media fabrication. An excellent display of Dempsey's fantastic power. However Greb had already begun what was to be a regular habit of beating Levinsky. And Greb had beaten him FIVE TIMES already...
I have no problem with putting Greb in the top ten. He would replace Renault. But Dempsey didn't fight either of them, so it really wouldn't change anything. If you want to rate Greb seventh, okay, but in fairness Willard, Fulton, Godfrey, Wills, and Firpo were all well over 200 lbs. and whom did Greb defeat that was that big? At some point size would matter. Greb over Sharkey? I favor Sharkey because of size. Tunney? Yes, Greb beat Tunney when Tunney was at light-heavy, but I think the 190 lb. Tunney that fought Dempsey would have been more to digest for Greb. *One question I would ask historians? How much of a demand was there for Dempsey to fight Greb? Certainly Greb's effectiveness against Dempsey's opponents ends up hurting Dempsey. If a middleweight, no matter how great, could beat these guys, how good were they? *By the way, I don't know what is supposed to be rubbish as the list of Greb victims you gave has the same names as the one I gave. **as for Firpo, I can't help it that Willard beat a guy considered a comer in Floyd Johnson, and so was back in serious consideration for a title shot. Brennan for some reason was considered a contender, probably because he did so well against Dempsey. Weinert was a top man of the era. If you don't like Firpo, who should replace him in a top ten list?
Dempsey weight under 180 for the Willard fight, carried weights in his pocket for the weigh in. Greb beat a 175 Tunney, a 180 Roper, a 186 Weinert, a 180 Kid Norfolk, a 185 Madden, a 187 Roper, a 200 Brennan FIVE TIMES... the list goes on of the guys he beat in Dempsey's weight range. Not to mention that he schooled Dempsey in sparring in Michigan... There was plenty of demand for it. Buy a subscription to an American News Archive website and discover it. Klompton also cites few articles in his book.
I came upon an article by an author named Matt McGrain which covered the Dempsey-Greb issue in depth. What is clear is that Greb was much better than the men Dempsey fought between 1920 and 1923 (with the possible exception of the huge and huge punching-albeit crude-Firpo) And Greb wanted the fight. And McGrain implies that the evidence points to Dempsey simply ducking Greb. *my size comparison wasn't Greb to Dempsey (or to Carpentier or Gibbons) but to Willard, Fulton, Wills, Godfrey, and Firpo. I can see Greb outboxing Firpo, but the others would have a hellacious size advantage and some skill and it's hard to see Greb hurting them at all. **Boxing is odd. Dempsey could beat the big fellows because he was much faster and also had a punch. Dempsey though might have a very tough time with the even faster Greb. But would Greb being a ton and a half faster be enough to get him a win over those giants without any power at all?
It's interesting that people argue Greb's credentials and resume as a heavyweight challenger for Dempsey more than Wills' resume now.
I'm starting to suspect Greb and Wills were the only fighters around who weren't bums and no-hopers .. ... which makes me wonder if they ever beat anyone decent either, since they never fought each other.
Well, Greb beat Tunney, Gibbons, Miske, Brennan, and Levinsky Wills beat Firpo, Fulton, and Homer Smith and both beat Gunboat Smith and Meehan. That IS most of Dempsey's resume.
