It was expected that a new champion would announce that he would draw the color line in those days. You always need to look at events within the times they occurred. This was a racially divided nation in 1919. Most people had a very different perspective regarding everything not just race vs today's American population. Rickard was controlling the shots in those early years. Rickard did not want to see a Jeffries-Johnson aftermath again.
The other point is if you look at the number of defenses Dempsey had over his championship years it was similar to those before him. Most prior champions took the title on the road doing vaudeville, exhibitions, plays etc in an effort to milk as much as they could from holding the championship. Dempsey came along at the time of the surge in silient movies so this is where he and those who backed him looked to do the same. In the end Dempsey was like those before him...Sullivan, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Jeffries in terms of how often he defended the crown and the manner in which he made money while NOT defending his crown.
Jeffries drew the color line, so that would be a valid criticism, but he defended every year, and had six serious defenses over five years (not counting fights like Finnegan) Jeffries was an active champion, and never took complete years off.
Guys like Willard, Firpo and Brennan had a good reputation in those days but they look like unskilled brutes today, no very good HW from afterwards would have trouble beating those boxers.
You cannot judge a fighter by a clip or two film HAND CRANKED herky jerky movements that made them look like Charley Chaplin comedies of silent film. My dad saw Lu Luis Angel Firpo train and spar in a NEW York gym, and told me his ponderous punches thudded on his sparring partners with great damage. Brennan at his best was a good puncher for a few years and say what you will about Jess Willard, before Dempsey obliterated him in one round [yes I said one round], Willard was never dropped before in his career. Jack Johnson hit big Jess with every punch in the book for TWENTY FIVE rounds in the blazing sun of Havana, never even staggering Willard until the 26th round when Willard finally sensed Lil Arthur had nothing left in the tank and kod Johnson with one powerful right cross koing Johnson...Not for nothing was Jack Dempsey in his prime the greatest fistic attraction in history, and one helluva tough customer to meet H2H...
Very true Burt. I was on another boxing board and they were all judging Ketchel by looking at his fourth bout with Papke. A bout that those at that time panned as being a horrible performance. Papke held for dear life every round. So they look to this bout to judge Ketchel but ignore all the experts from that time who stated he was an ATG fighter.
"tell me about the legitimacy of the Spanish American War?" This has something to do with Luis Firpo? I agree that we Americans should apologize for not living up to the elevated standards of ethical international behavior set by the European Great Powers over the centuries. "Firpo" Firpo won twelve straight in America, eleven by knockout. The one man who lasted the distance, the trial horse Homer Smith, survived thirteen knockdowns. Brennan was considered a contender, and if nothing else was durable. Only Dempsey had stopped him in over 100 fights until Firpo stopped him. Weinert was a top heavyweight for a decade, and would be rated the #3 contender in 1924, with wins over Jim Coffey, Gunboat Smith, Battling Levinsky, Bartley Madden, Marty Burke, Quinton Rojas, and Jack Sharkey. And he was young. I think Willard was originally thought of as cannon fodder for Floyd Johnson. One can see why Johnson looked like a comer. He had only lost two early fights (4 & 6 rounds) in forty total fights, had knocked out Bob Martin, and defeated Bill Brennan and Fred Fulton. Sure they were names from the past, but we have never seen young guys on the way up feeding on old names? Willard upset Johnson and was then matched with Firpo, a fight which drew a sensational crowd of over 80,000, indicating that the fans of the time took Willard and Firpo seriously. Firpo was as crude as they come, but he was big, could obviously punch, and I noticed on film would suddenly explode in a hurricane of punches--not really a combination, but a flurry--and all these punches were hard to avoid and dangerous from such a lethal puncher. *Dempsey could only fight the men of his era, and in my judgment, Firpo with a strong winning and KO streak, KO's of three top men--ex-champion Willard, veteran contender Brennan, and the decent contender Weinert, plus a battering of trial horse Homer Smith, and a KO of undefeated prospect Jack McAuliffe II, was a man who should have been defended against. If Wills was better is another issue. Firpo was "beyond embarrassing to the sport." This embarrassment put on one of the most exciting bouts ever for the heavyweight championship.
The idea is it was all very similar. No need to argue the fine points. The only top hwt challenger Dempsey failed to face was Wills and he was black. He did not have active past champions to fight like Jeffries. Most hwt champions in the early years just did not defend their title as much as today's champions. They made their money NOT risking the title by taking it on the road. We would call it "milking" the championship today. It was common practice certainly from Sullivan to the Dempsey era.
I disagree. Bad quality is not good yeah, but you still can see how a fighter delivers a punch in the Dempsey films, that we can see, Firpo had no technique whatsoever and he threw punches as a strong guy whom was given a pair of gloves. Same with a lot of others, there is no sharpness and polish in their technique, they look tight, rusty without waist and shoulder fluidity when throwing. You can see that quality in other old fighters like Kid Chocolate, so it's not the quality of the footage it seems (quality that is not really that bad in most of the Dempsey fights). Just my two cents on it.
Fair enough, but taking off all of 1924 and 1925 did push it to the extreme. And Jeffries should be given credit for not sitting on the title, regardless of the just criticism he gets for drawing the color line.
No one ever said even during that time that Firpo was a highly skilled fighter. What was said is that he was incredibly strong and had one punch ko power is his right hand. It was also said that he showed incredible courage entering the ring fighting the most ferocious and destructive puncher of that time with a left arm that was that very afternoon put into place after being dislocated. However Tommy Gibbons was considered an excellent boxer and his effectiveness was overwhelmed by the Dempsey attack.
Jeffries is demeaned incorrectly. I do not know if the man in his heart was a racist although I have read accounts that tell me he was fair to all men regardless of color. If you look at his record he fought as many or more black opponents than any hwt champion up to Joe Louis.
well Firpo has almost no defense, and little boxing technique, but he does appear to me to throw his punches with his body behind them and his own crude fluidity. I wouldn't want to be hit by his wild overhand right, that right cross that sometimes comes surprisingly straight, or his right uppercut. My guess is that his totally unorthodox style made him more effective than one might suppose as one couldn't anticipate where the next punch was coming from.
Here is the problem. You want to prosecute Dempsey based on contemporary opinion for not fighting Wills and Greb, but ignore it completely when it doesn't suit your argument. If somebody was regarded as a serious contender at the time, you can't simply dismiss that by finding a flaw in them. You say that it is painful to watch Firpo on film. I would suggest that it is painful to read your transparently biased attempts to rubbish Dempsey's opposition. You might not agree with my position, but I am honest enough to admit that Dempsey should have fought Wills and Greb. You are not honest enough to admit that Firpo and Carpintier were credible challengers, which they unequivocally were. If you criticise Dempsey for ignoring the demand to fight Wills, then you have to respect his decision to bow to the demand to fight Carpintier and Firpo.
Mostly correct. As I pointed out before Jeffries as champion gave Hank Griffin a match. Had Griffin won, he's the new lineal champion. Griffin was black. Jeffries also soundly defeated Armstong, and Jackson who were also black. The only big name black fighter on Dempsey's resume was John Lester Johnson. A draw seemed fair. One New York newspaper gave this report in a one-inch story: "John Lester Johnson outpointed Jack Dempsey in the Harlem Sporting Club last night. Dempsey failed to live up to the reputation that he earned in Salt Lake City, and was an easy mark for the local boxer." Another newspaper reported: "Neither boxer was ever in danger, but at the finish Johnson was very tired from the heavy punishment he received in the mid-section and around the head." The New York World called the fight "a fast ten-round draw." The New York Tribune reported: "John Lester Johnson won over Jack Dempsey." The Salt lake Tribune reported: "Jack Dempsey, the Salt Lake heavyweight, who has been causing such a stir among New York fans since he left here recently, last night won by a big shade over John Lester Johnson, one of the toughest negro fighters in New York. In their ten-round bout before the Harlem Sporting club, according to a telegram received by Dempsey's manager, Jack Price." In his book A Flame of Pure Fire: Jack Dempsey and the Roaring '20s, Roger Kahn writes: "The consensus of sportswriters gave a big hand to Dempsey's courage and a narrow decision to Johnson."
