How good was Liston in Ali vs Liston 1?

Some say he was old and past it, but he was the reigning heavyweight champion and had just come off 2 first round destructions of Floyd Patterson while Ali was coming off a hard fought decision over Doug Jones and a near miss vs Henry Cooper. I don't think there was any talk of Liston being past it leading up to the Ali fight and I don’t believe anyone thought Ali was better than Floyd Patterson at that point.

Even the Nation of Islam kept distance from Ali (Clay) because the top leadership of the Nation fully expected Liston to demolish the young Ali. They too, probably noted his recent struggles with Jones and Cooper.

But, in retrospect, how good was Liston in February of 1964?

 

Liston was definitely passed his best but not by too much. As you mention,Jake,he was coming off two one round blast outs against Floyd Patterson for a start. And Sonny could still have beaten anyone else in his division's Top 10 at the time. The young Cassius Clay had n't yet become the best Muhammad Ali we'd ever see (1966-67) but he was n't that far off it and Liston put up a competitive fight right up until the stoppage,albeit with the momentum having swung decisively to Cassius.

 

Good as he was vs Patterson basically… not the best he’d ever been but he didn’t look like he’d lost a step, he was just beaten easily because he wasn’t in that class of fighter with Ali, Louis, Tyson, Holmes and Holyfield etc.

 

Severely underrated.

A tad slower of foot, but he was never the quickest of foot and would always look slow compared to the high-energy, young Clay/Ali.

Slow down the tape and look at how adept Sonny is at slipping Ali's jab. You don't slip that jab as Sonny did unless you're in good nick and highly skilled. It was the speed and angles combined with Ali's size and range negotiation that Sonny struggled with. This version of Sonny would've still given many an ATG a torrid night in the ring.

 

Good enough to beat Floyd again in the first, but not good enough to defeat the young Cas.

 

It's hard to say, but quick and easy victories aren't good for your form. You lose motivation, you lose skills, you regress—it's like that in literally every field. Even in distance running, you need someone to push you. Sonny hadn't been pushed for many years before Clay, and winning the title probably disappointed him.

1. Sonny was probably older than his official age, perhaps by a few years.
2. In the few years before Clay, he only fought a few rounds. A dozen or so minutes over three years, and those were easy minutes.
3. There's plenty of evidence that Liston lost motivation. He was an alcoholic addicted to gambling. Clay sought him out in casinos, not training rooms.
4. There's much evidence that his injury was real, and Liston tried to postpone the fight. It may not have been a huge problem, but it was.

5. Clay had a unique style, definitely not a good match for Liston.

Overall, the fight was more even than it's often said today.

Was Clay overrated? Of course. Was it a big victory? Of course. That's no contradiction. But it was never a prime-to-prime fight. Frazier-Ali 1 was a prime-to-prime fight.

 

Liston was undoubtedly older then reported he led a criminal life as a young man and was in jail for a few long stretches. Becoming a boxing prospect at an older age then normal invites lying that they are younger to make the boxer seem to have more potential. He was so devastating that even the world champion ducked him for a few years. So by the time he actually won the title he surely was older then reported but he was still in his prime. If he was still in top form in the 1963 rematch with Patterson he surely wasn’t finished by the 1964 fight with Ali.

 

Reality is most ATGs never face each other prime for prime.

In order to be an ATG, you typically have to be elitely skilled at some facet of boxing and have a great résumé to back it up. Typically, it's a case of young lion defeating old lion, which is why Monzon beating Valdez or Ali besting Foreman stands out.

Regarding your point of number 2 and then conclusion that Ali and Frazier is a prime for prime fight. I don't know how you can take a fast twitch fighter such as an Ali, RJJ, PBF, Tyson, Camacho, whomever out of the professional ring for 3+ years, put them in two fights where they decidedly look slower and less fluid and claim they're prime or even ready to face the onslaught that is a primed and determined Frazier.

That Ali looked athletically more fluid from 72 - 74 should be an indicator that he wasn't quite the same fighter.

 

Ali was 29 in 1971, Frazier was 27. It's a small difference, and both had styles that aged quite quickly. Frazier's style aged faster. Ali was indeed before the biggest victories of his career. He and many others considered his best in Kinshasa – three years after Frazier. And you claim he was long past that.
29-year-old Ali didn't go to Frazier like 38-year-old (!) Vitali Klitschko went to Sam Peters after a four-year layoff due to a serious injury. He didn't go to AJ after a two-year layoff like 41-year-old Wlad Klitschko.

Was Ray Leonard, older in 1987 than Ali in 1971, emerging from a longer layoff than Ali and basing his boxing on similar strengths to Ali's, at a disadvantage against the naturally larger Marvin Hagler? Ali had TWO solid fights against world-class fighters resembling Frazier. He was in a much better position than Liston when he fought him in 1964.

 

And despite all of that, he looked better in terms of mobility and his general craftsmanship from 72 - 74.

He was arguably in his physical prime, in age alone, for Frazier but wasn't boxing-primed.

Leonard performed well against an aged and battle-scarred Hagler - it is not synonymous with Ali missing 3+ years and facing a primed Frazier. Had Leonard missed years and faced the Hagler that destroyed Sibson, of course, the point would stand. The timing was incredibly right for Leonard to face Hagler.

I made no claim of Ali being long past it. I said typically ATG HWs don't fight each other prime for prime. It is typically young lion beating old lion.

I then said you cannot take a fast twitch fighter out of the ring for so long and think they can be ready for THAT Frazier after two fights in which they didn't look like their former self in terms of fluidity, coordination and stamina. That his best victories were in front of him after Frazier reconciles with my point that he looked better from 72 - 74 as he was fighting regularly and getting through the ring rust.

Everything else is everything.

 

He was injured and took the fight lightly, not sparring like he used to. He really thought he would beat Clay in 2 rounds. Didn't train for more. He was in for a shock.

 

Well, Sonny Liston was a KO artist, so it's nothing out of the ordinary. During his whole campaign from the Williams to Westphal fights he olny went more than 3 rounds 2 times. In the 2 years prior to fighting Patterson he only got 4 rounds under his belt. But it didn't stop him from destroying Floyd in 1 round.

 

Nailed it! Even with Sonny's physical issues at the time (knee/shoulder) he thought he'd destroy Ali in a similar fashion to the two Patterson fights. Didn't train hard and thought Ali was just some mouthy kid that would fold like a tent the minute Sonny gave him his patented "death stare" during the introductions. He took Ali WAY too lightly and was inadequately prepared to take on a fighter with Ali's speed and skill level.

 

Even Gallender in his hagiography of Liston admits it.

Sonny hated the hot, humid Miami weather and would have preferred to stay in Denver until just before the fight. In the mornings, Sonny ran one mile instead of the usual five. He trained in a 15-foot ring rather than the conventional 20-footer but it would have been better to train in a 25-foot ring because everyone, including Sonny, knew that Clay was going to run. His handlers also kept working his midsection even though Cassius rarely threw a body punch.

Almost all of Sonny’s sparring partners were light-heavyweights and since they were also friends of his, he went easy on them. Ash tried to get Sonny to hire fighters who would better prepare him for a fight against a big, fast, young heavyweight like Clay. “What does it matter who I take as a sparring partner, Ash?” replied Sonny. “It ain’t gonna matter.”

Sonny was training for a two-or three-round fight and simply couldn’t imagine that it would be anything other than a quick one. The challenger had leaked word to Liston’s camp that he was scared to death, and Sonny found that easy to believe. “When the bell sounds, I’m expectin’ for Clay to jump out of the ring,” said Liston. “If he decides to fight, I figure I don’t have to use much smartness with him. I’ll just corner him and clobber him.”

Sonny was so intent on destroying his opponent that he somehow managed to forget a boxing maxim so fundamental that even a 22-year-old fighter like Clay knew it well. “I don’t care who a fighter is. He has got to stay in shape,” said Cassius. “While I was fighting Jones and Cooper, Liston was up to his neck in all of that rich, fat ritual of the champion. I’d nearly clap my hands every time I read or heard about him at some big function or ceremony, up half the night and drinking and all that.”

 

Thats some good info I didn’t know about which he always had said that simply he didn’t train hard enough but also said the reason he lost that 2nd one was because he over trained. That we can safely say wasn’t the reason. That almost certainly was a dive for a number of possible reasons.