Flynn did not win a single round and the referee stated Flynn was looking to foul out and save himself from being stopped . This is well known and accepted by all rational posters.
Hart's prefight statement." I always said I would never fight a ****** but I'll fight this one just to put him in his place". After the controversial ending of the fight Hart was asked about a rematch he said ,"my folks and friends would lynch me if I ever fought a **** again".Hart was from Kentucky.
But one still can't accurately assess him without footage correct? By your theory, you can draw some conclusions and ideas, but a proper and accurate evaluation can't happen without footage it seems.
I am sorry but we cannot say that Johnson was definitely robbed against Hart. Some people disagreed very vocally with the decision, but others said that it was right. Without film of the fight, we can't really come down on one side or the other. Perhaps Johnson was robbed, but the more that you look into this fight today, the less clear the picture becomes. There were plenty of people who thought that Johnson wouldn't have a chance against Jeffries either. Jeffries was probably the most highly rated champion of all time, at the time that he retired. Was it a weak era though? You had Jeffries as champion and Johnson as the #1 contender when Hart was on the up. You had contenders like Sam Langford emerging while Hart was champion. That sounds like a pretty strong era to me!
Langford wasnt a heavyweight factor during Hart's reign ,and by the time he began to be one,[ 1908 ,]Hart was basically washed up.Jeffries was highly rated when he retired, but there had only been 3 champions before him!
On reflection I agree, but I think that McVea and Jeanette were in the picture by then! So you have two all time greats, more or less in their primes at the same time, when Hart is sniffing around the title, and very good contenders on the way up. That is not a weak era! There had been dozens of champions before him, but most of them were bare knuckle. Every contemporary article that I have read, that discusses Jeffries claim to be the GOAT, compares him to bare knuckle champions!
I didnt say it was a weak era I just pulled you up on Langford's development.Im not factoring in bareknuckle heavyweight fighters, that's another game entirely.
Just to be clear, I am not banging the drum for Hart here. He could very plausibly have been as bad as you say he was, and yes he is one of the least likable heavyweight champions. That having been said, he is a champion who merits an open mind, based on the paucity of the evidence, and its contradictory nature!
art made Johnson shut down, limiting his offense to virtually nothing in the second half of the fight. If you read the reports, Johnson faded in some of his title fights. He was tired vs Flynn they say at ring side when it was stopped on a DQ, and he was running out of steam vs Jim Battling Johnson, and did the same later in the Moran fight. Hart wasn't a 5'7"-5'9" tall man Johnson could simply clinch and hit. No sir he was a legit heavyweight the same size as Johnson and made him fight at a pace he didn't like. I'm not sure when he lost vision, but fighting with one good eye is very difficult. QUOTE="KuRuPT, post: 20003010, member: 73948"]Lol all of this is wrong and you know it Mendoza[/QUOTE] What part was wrong? Johnson own corner told him to pick up the activity. In one round he threw just a punch. The 2nd half of the fight was Hart's. There have been several ring side reporters at the fight who felt Johnson was tiring vs Flynn, and he was in trouble late vs.Battling Jim Johnson.
Actually Jeffries is on quote considering Johnson as a title opponent post Munroe. As soon as Johnson won the title, he said he'd draw the color line too.
Johnson’s bout with Flynn was a one sided fight. Articles from the eye witnesses described a beatdown with Flynn streaming blood and Johnson relatively unmarked. Article I posted clearly stated Flynn would have been koed in a few more rounds had the bout continued. You need to be very careful interpreting accounts of Johnson’s bouts. Individual writers could be just as prejudice as the general population and their accounts slanted. Look to the overall eyewitness opinions and ignore obvious outliers.
Grebs record is undisputed and iron clad. Regardless of film footage no one can discount that record nor ignore the praise by experts that placed Greb as an ATG middleweight the past 90 years. Can you punch holes in Jeffries and Hart’s record. For sure. Thus the reason film footage is necessary in order to rank them. No such issue with Greb.
Why is the old timer rambling on for pages about Johnson's bout with Flynn? This is about Hart, right?
Will you provide this "quote" please? Meanwhile here are some other Jeffries quotes. "I will never take a chance on losing my title to a black man". "Johnson is good, he may be as good as the whole Japanese Army,but as long as I am champion he will never fight for the title". "I am not into fighting skunks yet". "If the public demands that I should fight Johnson ,I will surely have to decline.If I am defeated for the championship,7 it will go to a white man.,for I will not fight a colored one" " I am ready to meet any fighter in the world,if he is a white man,and as far as a licking is concerned,I don't fear any black man,but if such a thing was to happen, that I was to be beaten I would rather give up my title to a white man" "I am still in the game and will fight any white man they can trot out,but I draw the line on colored men.Not that I am afraid of the dark skinned fighters,but if I am booked for a licking,I want a white man to do it". " I will fight any white man on earth ,but there is no chance of my crawling through the ropes with a ****". " Jack Johnson is a fair fighter but he is black and for that reason I will never fight him". " I am not going to discuss Johnson's abilities as a boxer.He may be a wonder and all that,but if any one is going to take my title I want that man to be of my own color.If Hart wins I will cheerfully give him a fight". I am glad Marvin Hart won over Johnson last night.Not that it means a prospective candidate for my title,but it places the negro out of the running.If Johnson had won he would never have fought me.My decision never to fight a negro while I am champion would have been faithfully kept". I have around 30 more quotes all in the same vein, but I think these are enough to show Jeffries was never going to defend his crown against a black man.
