How Good Was Sonny Liston circ 1960?

Out of that list I would only pick Holmes and Lennox against him but they're in my top five hws.

 

That's the same thing everyone said about Ali facing Liston.

 

Wow this has to be the worst post I’ve ever read on ANY forum. I’ve crapped out stuff better than this

 

Man would have loved to have seen a motivated Liston v Ali. Liston is in my top five ever at hw. He’s one of those guys imo once he won the title he just became addicted to the money and partying that came with it. Once some men reach the pinnacle I think they don’t know what to do with themselves. How do you motivate yourself when you’re already rich and achieved the highest goal you could? I don’t hold his after winning the chip against him just as I don’t as men like Tyson and Bowe and Dempsey and others.
I think people severely underrate men like Machen (nice documentary out), Folley, Williams Patterson when discussing Listons accomplishments. Along with other nice wins over lesser competition. Look at most heavyweight champions they only have a few good wins. Liston is better then most even if they were a little smaller they didn’t lack skill.

 

One of the main measures of greatness is the ability to stay focused over time and continue to perform after success.

If you can only do it as the hunter and not the hunted, it’s a mark against your greatness — you don’t build legacy by climbing a mountain and then falling off it. You have to stay at the top.

You motivate yourself to prove it again and again, you create things in your mind if necessary to do so: look at how Marvin Hagler continually found a way to feel dissed by every opponent to keep that angry/hungry mindset — hell, he knocked out inept Fully Obel once and fought him again and left the weigh-in so pissed that one of the Petronellis (I forget which) was petrified, Marvin fuming about how he was going to kill the guy … because Obel had the audacity to say he was going to be champion after the fight, lol.

If Sonny, as you believe, was satisfied with winning it and lost the desire to keep it (I tend to doubt this, I think he showed in his first defense that he was still the same Sonny, but to indulge your line of thought) then he wasn’t all that to begin with … because he lacked that fire that all greats have to continually strive to prove himself the best over and over.

 

Floyd was knocked down AT LEAST 20 TIMES in his career.

He was stopped more than once by fighters not named Sonny Liston.

Not exactly an iron man.[/QUOTE]

Yes, comprising Ingo 9 x and Liston 4 x and Ali 1 x I believe (tot already 14). Stopped 5 times - Ingo 1 x Liston 2 x and Ali 2 x - so just two fighters not named Liston, one being a renowned puncher and the manner of the Ali stoppages? - well, no need to qualify how those went down - not reflective of a glass chin.

Prob best if Floyd stayed down for better (less #) KD stats. Joe Frazier had to wear no less than 8 KDs over 2 fights vs ATG puncher Foreman. A stat if presented in isolation and without due context might mislead as to the true quality of Joe’s chin.

As I said, vs Patterson, what was Liston supposed to do better than what he did short of manslaughter?

 

Yes, comprising Ingo 9 x and Liston 4 x and Ali 1 x I believe (tot already 14). Stopped 5 times - Ingo 1 x Liston 2 x and Ali 2 x - so just two fighters not named Liston, one being a renowned puncher and the manner of the Ali stoppages? - well, no need to qualify how those went down - not reflective of a glass chin.

Prob best if Floyd stayed down for better (less #) KD stats. Joe Frazier had to wear no less than 8 KDs over 2 fights vs ATG puncher Foreman. A stat if presented in isolation and without due context might mislead as to the true quality of Joe’s chin.

As I said, vs Patterson, what was Liston supposed to do better than what he did short of manslaughter?[/QUOTE]

Sonny did what he should have done against a scared-stiff Patterson, who was knocked down by an amateur and by several other lesser fighters. If only Liston had knocked Floyd down, you could bring Foreman-Frazier into the conversation but heavyweight champ Joe Frazier didn’t get knocked down by Pete “Amateur” Rademacher or other lesser lights.

I’m not saying that to take anything away from Sonny, but knocking out a guy who brings a disguise to his fight because he knows he’s going to get destroyed and doesn’t want people to recognize him after isn’t what I’d hang my hat on.

 

Sonny did what he should have done against a scared-stiff Patterson, who was knocked down by an amateur and by several other lesser fighters. If only Liston had knocked Floyd down, you could bring Foreman-Frazier into the conversation but heavyweight champ Joe Frazier didn’t get knocked down by Pete “Amateur” Rademacher or other lesser lights.

I’m not saying that to take anything away from Sonny, but knocking out a guy who brings a disguise to his fight because he knows he’s going to get destroyed and doesn’t want people to recognize him after isn’t what I’d hang my hat on.[/QUOTE]

Well of course I can bring Frazier - Foreman into the conversation because the KDs suffered against Johannson alone comprise nearly half of the total and, with the Liston fights atop that, it accounts for nearly 75 % of the total. Joe Frazier himself also had a few other KDs against him and several other occasions when he was notably rocked but Joe’s chin was obviously better than Floyd’s.

I haven’t verified the total of 20 myself but via subtraction that leaves 7 KDs otherwise - fights in which of course Patterson was not KO’d - and among those, he took a knee vs Ali, not a chinny KD per se. Surely a glass chin would’ve seen more KOs yielded by fighters not necessarily considered punchers - as Ingemar and Liston most certainly were.

Anyway, I certainly don’t think anyone said Floyd had a great chin or that he was an iron man but I wouldn’t say his chin was glass - just fair - for the sake of comparison, certainly not like the chin we saw on Jones Jr in his later career - now that was a glass chin.

 

I disagree. Just about all greats have gotten lazy after winning it. Including Ali, Frazier, Tyson, Foreman, Bowe, Lewis etc. Only a few like Louis and Holmes I can’t recall coming in not prepared and even then when they got older they were coming in heavier. It’s only that Liston was already pretty old by the time he got his shot.

 

Liston mops the floor with Louis and Johnson.

 

Greats in all sport sustain it for a period. Frazier or Ali or some of the others may have leveled off but not immediately.

I think Sonny ran into his kryptonite in Ali and his age wasn’t as big a factor. He was coming off two devastating wins over the previous champion and he suddenly gets old? He wasn’t a spring chicken but he wasn’t washed up.

 

Well of course I can bring Frazier - Foreman into the conversation because the KDs suffered against Johannson alone comprise nearly half of the total and, with the Liston fights atop that, it accounts for nearly 75 % of the total. Joe Frazier himself also had a few other KDs against him and several other occasions when he was notably rocked but Joe’s chin was obviously better than Floyd’s.

I haven’t verified the total of 20 myself but via subtraction that leaves 7 KDs otherwise - fights in which of course Patterson was not KO’d - and among those, he took a knee vs Ali, not a chinny KD per se. Surely a glass chin would’ve seen more KOs yielded by fighters not necessarily considered punchers - as Ingemar and Liston most certainly were.

Anyway, I certainly don’t think anyone said Floyd had a great chin or that he was an iron man but I wouldn’t say his chin was glass - just fair - for the sake of comparison, certainly not like the chin we saw on Jones Jr in his later career - now that was a glass chin.[/QUOTE]

You seem to keep saying ‘apart from all those knockdowns, he only got knocked down seven more times’ as if the others don’t count. And seven is a LOT. Not to mention how many times Sonny and Ingo bounced him like a basketball off the canvas.

Roy Jr stayed on far too long and was a shell of himself. Floyd got knocked down on his way to the title, numerous times as champ and numerous times after it … while he was still in a viable state. If Floyd got knocked out at the end of his peak (let’s say after dropping back down to light heavy to make it an eve more apt analogy) and then years later started getting knocked down regularly you’d have a valid comparison. But that’s not how it happened.

Patterson’s chin wasn’t suspect. It was just not good.

 

Didn’t say he “got” old. He was already older but he got less motivated to train. Which is more common then being motivated to train. Even Marciano who was a training nut stopped training as hard when he was champ

 

I, too, prefer my Gerry Cooneys non-alcoholic, although my friends sometimes peer pressure me about it.

 

Apart from Ali who cut him?