How Good Was Sonny Liston circ 1960?

Cleveland Williams cut him too.

 

Holyfield.

 

Interesting observation, though I'd add quite a few names to the second group. Jeffries and Wladimir were always in top condition, despite being long reign champions. Then of course we have Marciano who was always motivated and hard working in training. Not a lot of HW champions with many defenses, so you might have a point.

 

Wlad was consistent but I’d even say Marciano took a step back in training after winning. The desire must drop like a rock after winning . That’s why most contenders after losing a title shot usually fall off fast. They know reached the top but couldn’t win and gave up. That’s most contenders not all. Definitely a few exceptions there

 

You seem to keep saying ‘apart from all those knockdowns, he only got knocked down seven more times’ as if the others don’t count. And seven is a LOT. Not to mention how many times Sonny and Ingo bounced him like a basketball off the canvas.

Roy Jr stayed on far too long and was a shell of himself. Floyd got knocked down on his way to the title, numerous times as champ and numerous times after it … while he was still in a viable state. If Floyd got knocked out at the end of his peak (let’s say after dropping back down to light heavy to make it an eve more apt analogy) and then years later started getting knocked down regularly you’d have a valid comparison. But that’s not how it happened.

Patterson’s chin wasn’t suspect. It was just not good.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t state or imply that those KDs don’t count or perhaps factor in some way but they certainly don’t count or reflect a glass chin as was being suggested and they were included in the total to try and emphasise a glass chin - I duly qualified those KDs. As to the other KDs, I also pointed out that Floyd took a voluntary knee v Ali 1 and I will now add that Floyd slipped v Bonavena. Then you’ve got 2 KDs per fight v Quarry (tot 4) - Jerry was much younger and an acknowledged hard puncher - two close fights Patterson saw out with an argument to have won both - the value of invoking KDs in concluding a glass chin loses a lot of value when said fighter didn’t actually suffer an ultimate KO loss in the fights in question. Consider also Patterson’s sometimes reckless style that left him open to a good shot - those occasions being more about a defence issue than a flat out glass chin or necessarily acutely weak jaw. Interesting that Floyd identified himself as a slow starter and that early KDs were “just a formality” - LOL.

As to the chin of later career Jones - I wasn’t debating as to whether it pre-existed or eroded from prime when it wasn’t so tested - quite simply, Roy’s chin from Tarver 2 thereafter exemplified a glass chin - Floyd’s chin was well removed from the fragility of that mandible.

 

I didn’t state or imply that those KDs don’t count or perhaps factor in some way but they certainly don’t count or reflect a glass chin as was being suggested and they were included in the total to try and emphasise a glass chin - I duly qualified those KDs. As to the other KDs, I also pointed out that Floyd took a voluntary knee v Ali 1 and I will now add that Floyd slipped v Bonavena. Then you’ve got 2 KDs per fight v Quarry (tot 4) - Jerry was much younger and an acknowledged hard puncher - two close fights Patterson saw out with an argument to have won both - the value of invoking KDs in concluding a glass chin loses a lot of value when said fighter didn’t actually suffer an ultimate KO loss in the fights in question. Consider also Patterson’s sometimes reckless style that left him open to a good shot - those occasions being more about a defence issue than a flat out glass chin or necessarily acutely weak jaw. Interesting that Floyd identified himself as a slow starter and that early KDs were “just a formality” - LOL.

As to the chin of later career Jones - I wasn’t debating as to whether it pre-existed or eroded from prime when it wasn’t so tested - quite simply, Roy’s chin from Tarver 2 thereafter exemplified a glass chin - Floyd’s chin was well removed from the fragility of that mandible.[/QUOTE]

No it doesn’t as far as the Roy Jr comparison because you’re talking about a period where a guy is fighting on not just past his prime, but well past the time everyone knew he should be retired.

With Floyd, we see it over his entire career arc. Including his prime.

You want to deconstruct AT LEAST TWENTY career knockdowns to say ‘well he took a knee one time’ (as if that doesn’t count), ‘that one could have been ruled a slip’ (it wasn’t), this one guy knocked him down 4 times and these other guys knocked him down a bunch of other times, so let’s scratch those off the list — and now when we rule out half his knockdowns he only got knocked down half as many times as he actually did.

It’s ridiculous.

He gifted an underserved title shot to an AMATEUR and that guy knocked him down.

Find me another heavyweight champion who got knocked down 20 times, with more than half of them in his prime. You can’t because there hasn’t been one.

That tells me Floyd did not have a sturdy chin. In fact he had a below-average chin for a heavyweight champion. I don’t see how that’s up for debate, and Roy Jones Jr getting knocked down at age 40 when he should have been long retired doesn’t change that.

 

No it doesn’t as far as the Roy Jr comparison because you’re talking about a period where a guy is fighting on not just past his prime, but well past the time everyone knew he should be retired.

With Floyd, we see it over his entire career arc. Including his prime.

You want to deconstruct AT LEAST TWENTY career knockdowns to say ‘well he took a knee one time’ (as if that doesn’t count), ‘that one could have been ruled a slip’ (it wasn’t), this one guy knocked him down 4 times and these other guys knocked him down a bunch of other times, so let’s scratch those off the list — and now when we rule out half his knockdowns he only got knocked down half as many times as he actually did.

It’s ridiculous.

He gifted an underserved title shot to an AMATEUR and that guy knocked him down.

Find me another heavyweight champion who got knocked down 20 times, with more than half of them in his prime. You can’t because there hasn’t been one.

That tells me Floyd did not have a sturdy chin. In fact he had a below-average chin for a heavyweight champion. I don’t see how that’s up for debate, and Roy Jones Jr getting knocked down at age 40 when he should have been long retired doesn’t change that.[/QUOTE]

The KDs have been duly qualified - it’s ridiculous to simply point to the # without due examination - . Do you believe Lamar Clark was among the hardest punchers ever purely by way of his consecutive early rd KO #s etc?

Is it not “deconstruction” - your own effort to completely rationalise away Jones’ chilling KO losses to Tarver and thereafter?

You’re going in cold on Floyd’s KD stars because it suits your argument. It WAS a slip vs Bonavena but never mind the fact that Floyd was also 37 yo - you’re only focused on plugging for extenuating circumstances on Roy Jones Jr’s behalf - who was 35 btw, not 40, when he was single shotted for the KO. You’re fixated on defending Roy’s chin - even when I made it clear that at the least, whatever his chin was before, at the point in his career (as proven from Tarver 2 on, - it represented a GLASS CHIN as defined - and Floyd didn’t possess same and Floyd was caught by relatively harder shots that weren’t landed on Jones’ himself until Tarver 2.

If I said Ali was the epitome of slow v Holmes - that’s just a fact and speaks nothing of what he was previously.

Yes, Rademacher - don’t you think if we extrapolated on the KD as at the time (real time ) we might project a lot more KO defeats on Floyd’s record ? - it didn’t happen - but you keeping hanging on to that KD and you’re over weighting it’s “ramifications” because history proved that, despite KDs against a puncher like Quarry, Floyd could still hang tough and also with the likes of hard punching Bonavena too at an advanced age despite suffering KDs in prior fights. He also easily beat Machen who had Frazier all but down with a single left hook later round left hook against the tide of a steady beat down.

Yes, Floyd took a knee v Ali 1. He didn’t crash from a punch - and then there’s Floyd’s bad back to be factored in - but you’re ignoring that - all up, Floyd went about 19 rds with Ali - all you’ve got for that is Patterson took a knee - and Ali went hard at a very competitive Floyd in ‘72 and it was only a cut eye that stopped Patterson - where’s the ghost of Rademacher? - overdone, as I said. Deconstruction? Hardly. It’s due qualification.

Again, I wasn’t judging Roy’s chin pre vs post 35 - but while we’re there - how do you think Roy pumped up further for the Ruiz fight - why are those “means” being skipped and instead we’re fast tracked to Roy dropping back to LH as the primary cause of his woes?

Why didn’t Roy stay at HW? Because Ruiz was an absolute stretch for Roy as a HW - and cumbersome Ruiz still managed to rocked Roy to his heels in the first rd with a few punches that weren’t particularly hard - then by way of an overly protective ref Ruiz wasn’t allowed to get in close and do any more damage.

Btw, H2H at HW, Floyd would’ve been a far worse prospect for Jones than Ruiz - Patterson, super fast himself and far more durable would’ve knocked Roy out cold. IMO.

 

The KDs have been duly qualified - it’s ridiculous to simply point to the # without due examination - . Do you believe Lamar Clark was among the hardest punchers ever purely by way of his consecutive early rd KO #s etc?

Is it not “deconstruction” - your own effort to completely rationalise away Jones’ chilling KO losses to Tarver and thereafter?

You’re going in cold on Floyd’s KD stars because it suits your argument. It WAS a slip vs Bonavena but never mind the fact that Floyd was also 37 yo - you’re only focused on plugging for extenuating circumstances on Roy Jones Jr’s behalf - who was 35 btw, not 40, when he was single shotted for the KO. You’re fixated on defending Roy’s chin - even when I made it clear that at the least, whatever his chin was before, at the point in his career (as proven from Tarver 2 on, - it represented a GLASS CHIN as defined - and Floyd didn’t possess same and Floyd was caught by relatively harder shots that weren’t landed on Jones’ himself until Tarver 2.

If I said Ali was the epitome of slow v Holmes - that’s just a fact and speaks nothing of what he was previously.

Yes, Rademacher - don’t you think if we extrapolated on the KD as at the time (real time ) we might project a lot more KO defeats on Floyd’s record ? - it didn’t happen - but you keeping hanging on to that KD and you’re over weighting it’s “ramifications” because history proved that, despite KDs against a puncher like Quarry, Floyd could still hang tough and also with the likes of hard punching Bonavena too at an advanced age despite suffering KDs in prior fights. He also easily beat Machen who had Frazier all but down with a single left hook later round left hook against the tide of a steady beat down.

Yes, Floyd took a knee v Ali 1. He didn’t crash from a punch - and then there’s Floyd’s bad back to be factored in - but you’re ignoring that - all up, Floyd went about 19 rds with Ali - all you’ve got for that is Patterson took a knee - and Ali went hard at a very competitive Floyd in ‘72 and it was only a cut eye that stopped Patterson - where’s the ghost of Rademacher? - overdone, as I said. Deconstruction? Hardly. It’s due qualification.

Again, I wasn’t judging Roy’s chin pre vs post 35 - but while we’re there - how do you think Roy pumped up further for the Ruiz fight - why are those “means” being skipped and instead we’re fast tracked to Roy dropping back to LH as the primary cause of his woes?

Why didn’t Roy stay at HW? Because Ruiz was an absolute stretch for Roy as a HW - and cumbersome Ruiz still managed to rocked Roy to his heels in the first rd with a few punches that weren’t particularly hard - then by way of an overly protective ref Ruiz wasn’t allowed to get in close and do any more damage.

Btw, H2H at HW, Floyd would’ve been a far worse prospect for Jones than Ruiz - Patterson, super fast himself and far more durable would’ve knocked Roy out cold. IMO.[/QUOTE]

I’m speaking to the years gone on after the Tarver right (Roy went the distance with Tarver next time they fought btw), not that one KO. There’s some not pretty stuff when he was 40 and older but if you’re holding that against him and somehow equating that to Floyd getting knocked down 20 times, more than half of them in his prime, I don’t know what to tell you.

A guy taking a knee is a knockdown. It counts as such. It’s a way to avoid punishment. You surely know this but don’t want to count it.

As I noted, PRIME Floyd got put on his fanny by an amateur.

At the county fair, you’d have to do something more impressive than knocking Patterson down to win a teddy bear because it was so common.

If you want to keep this discussion going, answer my question: name one other heavyweight who got knocked down 20 times or more with at least half of them in his prime.

Because I’m just going to keep asking.

If you think Floyd was sturdy, the record says otherwise. He spent more time on the canvas than Picasso did putting paint on canvas.

 

Minor edit/suggestion to make the turn of phrase snappier.

I give no opinion on the truth of the underlying claim, however.

 

Liston is good but when people have him higher ranked than holyfield,Tyson,Marciano,holmes are deluted

 

Tyson easy smash liston lewis too skilled holmes easy 15 round UD liston beat bums another fighter overhyped by ali nuthuggers

 

I’m speaking to the years gone on after the Tarver right (Roy went the distance with Tarver next time they fought btw), not that one KO. There’s some not pretty stuff when he was 40 and older but if you’re holding that against him and somehow equating that to Floyd getting knocked down 20 times, more than half of them in his prime, I don’t know what to tell you.

A guy taking a knee is a knockdown. It counts as such. It’s a way to avoid punishment. You surely know this but don’t want to count it.

As I noted, PRIME Floyd got put on his fanny by an amateur.

At the county fair, you’d have to do something more impressive than knocking Patterson down to win a teddy bear because it was so common.

If you want to keep this discussion going, answer my question: name one other heavyweight who got knocked down 20 times or more with at least half of them in his prime.

Because I’m just going to keep asking.

If you think Floyd was sturdy, the record says otherwise. He spent more time on the canvas than Picasso did putting paint on canvas.[/QUOTE]

You can keep asking all you like, so what, it’s not the defining stat you’re suggesting it to be as I’ve clearly illustrated.

LOL, I’m not concerned if the discussion continues or not - but I’ll reply to whatever and whenever I see fit.

I’ve qualified my points perfectly. You’re misdirecting - if Floyd took a knee of course it’s an official KD - who’s arguing against that - did Floyd go down due to a glass chin on that particular occasion which is exactly what you’re trying to use the KD count to suggest? Of course not - but you’re binding yourself to every “official” KD as a significant bang on a fighter’s chin - only when it suits you? And, you’re still ignoring the bad back I see and the fact that Floyd only touched the deck ONCE over 19 rounds vs Ali or the FACT that Floyd slipped v Bonavena etc, etc and was NOT actually KO’d by punchers like Quarry and Oscar - but STILL hanging desperately on to the Rademacher KD (note - didn’t result in a KO loss) which didn’t correlate to or forecast the durability Floyd upheld in other fights against better and harder punching comp.,

So demanding an answer to a stat that you’re clearly overweighting to suggest a glass chin - glass chin as being knocked out old - as Roy was by ONE punch - doesn’t cut it and indicative of a conveniently limited approach that deliberately avoids due examination.

So you’re speaking to the years gone after the Tarver KO? Skipping the Johnson one punch KO loss in the same year, Roy 35 yo? So 36 yo Roy went the distance v Tarver in fight 3. What’s the point behind that reference? Proof that Roy’s chin wasn’t so bad - contradicting the claim of his being damaged goods (resilience) coming back to LH? - or, did Roy essentially box a purely defensive fight, protecting the crystal whiskers, and still nearly came to grief in the 11th round. Did Floyd ever fight in such an acutely defensive manner? - NO, he didn’t and you also ignored the defensive lapses highlighted.

It’s one thing to be put on your rear but still get up and go on to win - it’s another thing again to be hit by a single shot and, immediately upon impact, be put into the land of dreams for several minutes. Like I said, that IS a glass chin.

You can talk KDs til the cows come home - and continue leaving holes in your assessment - but cutting to the chase - Floyd was only down for the 10 count twice - by acknowledged power punching Liston and otherwise stopped by acknowledged right hand power puncher Johansson and Ali twice - 3 times on his feet.

As much as you would like to pretend and go all in on over and over, - no, he wasn’t KO’d by Rademacher - that Floyd allowed himself to be caught for a brief KD was the overriding issue. The Rademacher cow has no milk left…it’s bereft of life.

Floyd might’ve met the deck a few times, but it was essentially a case of the old saying “It’s a nice place to visit but…..” and Floyd didn’t. However it was Roy who truly became one with the canvas - the perfect “still life” subject - it was becoming nigh impossible to distinguish him from the sponsor logos - but there was no confusion as to what an inert Roy was advertising….

 

How do you think a fight between Liston and jers would go?

 

Just as a point of reference, could you name a few elite heavyweights who definitely did have glass chins (at least by elite heavyweight standards)?

 

Jers whoops him in 6 rounds