How good was the Gibbons who fought Dempsey ?

Iv'e seen klompton say Gibbons was prime in 1923, makes it a better win for Dempsey. Not a great performance though.

 

And a fighter who had lost to both Greb and Miske the year before.

I do concede Gibbons was a very good fighter. I just can't look past who Jack should have fought.

 

No doubt, I really wish the fight happened. Greb should have been in the ring in Shelby that day. Greb and Dempsey should have been in the ring in 1919 IMO. Both at their peaks, would have been amazing.

WHat If Greb jumped in the ring in 1921 at the Carpentier fight? (I think Langford did something similar with Johnson,) that kinda pressure would have been harder for Demps to ignore. Maybe it would have been more likely to come off. Not like Harry didn't do enough though.

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[SIZE=+1]Greb is fourth from left in this group shot of sportswriters at the Dempsey-Carpentier bout at Boyle's Thirty Acres in New Jersey, July 2, 1921. George Engel, Harry's manager, is at the extreme right.

from harrygreb.com
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B, great picture that I never saw before. Harry Greb with that owl-like face
was an original,and my absolute favorite of alltime. FEARLESS, and he LOVED to fight...:good

 

Good points, I do think Gibbons is perhaps Dempsey's best win. I think an elite LHW can be a threat to some HWs, especially older, none elite or lighter hitting HWs. Ofcourse Jack Dempsey was a LHW himself, it is rumoured he really weighed 172lbs against Willard and put weights in his pockets at the weigh in. I'm not sure if I believe this rumour myself

Still the LHWs who had the most success ate their way to being bigger stronger men. Patterson bulked up force feeding himself, Jack Johnson (an ex LHW himself) bulked up, Charles/Bivins/Moore grew into larger men and Moore could only later make LHW. Moorer and Jones Jr both bulked up to in order to hold their own

Today I'm not sure a LHW can compete and I don't think Adamek is that good and he was outboxed for 12rounds by Chad Dawson. David Haye is probably the modern equivilent in today's division of bigger man, starting his career at 190lbs and growing larger but maintaining his speed and power

 

Extra weight on a fighter doesn't always translate to being a better fighter. For a recent example- Adamek is not the fighter now that he was as a lightheavyweight, slower for sure. Like a race car driver lugging a trailker in the back....David Haye,so far seems the exception. We'll see ...

 

Tommy was the first man to get the best of Greb after Harry's 1919 campaign. Greb needed a couple tries before figuring him out. Jack came from a two year layoff and in a single attempt dominated a challenger who would take out a hot Bloomfield and Norfolk the following year. (Earlier in 1924, Norfolk dominated Greb over the first five rounds until Harry got himself DQed in the sixth with a retaliatory foul. At the time of TGibbons KO 6 Norfolk, the Kid had been previously taken out three times, with Wills and Langford being two of the culprits.) Dempsey took 12 of 15 rounds from Tommy, matching Greb's margin of victory over the championship distance in Madison Square Garden early the previous year. Tommy was still pretty good, and Tunney wanted no part of him yet at this stage.

 

I'm no authority on Bright's disease but after his failed attempt against Dempsey, Miske went on to beat Brennan, Fulton (KO1), Meehan (KO1) and Tommy Gibbons, no small feat. Also, lesser lights like Renault and Roper were dispatched. Hardly seems the work of a dying man.

 

Well it has to be solid functional weight, allot of guys have added solid muscle and kept their speed/stamina, ie Patterson/Holyfield

 

Patterson's a strange case. I don't know how he ever weighed up in the 195 area, his frame was very small for a heavyweight - he always looked a bit like a middleweight in there. Even against guys who were supposedly the same weight as him.

 

I agree with you that most of the better examples do bulk up and do better, especially nowadays. But i am not convinced this is necessary. Size is important. Particularly natural size. And anyone who says otherwise is just being ridiculous.

But, the problem is, imo, the modern (particularly) tendency is to sacrifice speed and stamina for size and power. I dont think this is as smart as it seems. I think people today, particularly in the heavyweight division, (in a strategy as a whole) underestimate the value of landing 3 or 4 solid shots, as opposed to 2 big shots.

the most successful fighters of all time have always been those who concentrate on landing, not taking their fighters heads off. Ali rarely sat down on his punches unless he knew he was landing. Same with Holmes. Wlad used to but doesnt now and he is much more successful.

Tyson was the prime example, he tried to sit down on every punch after prime, and score that KO. He wasnt anywhere near as successful. You are right that Roy Jones bulked up, but watch Ruiz, he didnt really sit down on his punches, yet he still hurt Ruiz bad early in the fight, because he landed so often early. The commentators even noted that his shots had no effect (from memory) in that first round, but they were wrong. Light heavyweights who land often will hurt (not necessarilly KO) anyone. In fact, Arguably middleweights can too.

When a light heavyweight bulks up, depending on the training and of course style of fighter, he can be a better proposition than he was at light heavyweight, but not by all that much. He is still largely the same fighter with largely the same punching power and chin and ability to land. Unless of course, he changes style, gains experience, or there is some other major change. In fact, in many cases i think there is a change of style, and it is not for the better. They rely more on power, often honed against fighters who are not the heavyweight elite. If Adamek (as a heavy) were to fight Dawson (as a light heavy), right now, I dont know the result for sure, but i do think that Dawson would make a very good fight of it (not too different to their actual fights). Actually, regardless of how the two go in their next fights, i think it would be great fight to make just to see who wins. It is a shame we dont see these type of fights anymore.

 

I just rewatched Dempsey-Gibbons, its actually a pretty good fight, Dempsey's performance is not bad, not as bad as the Firpo fight anyway. He is quite technical in this fight with his inside game and he shows pretty good boxing skills. Gibbons too put up a good performance IMO. He did have Jack in trouble a couple times.