How good was the Gibbons who fought Dempsey ?

I dont know that Gibbons was in his prime when he fought Dempsey. I dont recall saying that. But he wasnt too far off. I would take issue with him being in his prime because of the changes he had made to his style. By about 1921 he had increasingly gotten away from the more technical St. Paul style and had gone to a more KO friendly style. Which was criticised by Mike. He had also really gotten away from fighting more challenging fights in favor of racking up glossy KOs in hopes that it would get the public talking and garner him a title shot. It worked but I think the lack of competition dulled him a bit, as we saw in the Greb fight. I dont think Gibbons would have ever beat Greb in 1922, but outside of the second round Gibbons was largely uncompetetive in that bout which was very uncharacteristic. He came up with a million excuses for his performance afterwards but I think ultimately it was due to his change in style and relative lack of competition. Now taking that into account, between Greb and Dempsey his competition got no better, maybe even worse and so I think you can see a strong case for him no longer being the force he was in 1920 and before. Now, with all that being said I absolutely think it was the best win of Jack's championship career.

 

It was in the thread about Gibbons being a forgotten fighter:

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=212853

"Because he lost the three most important fights of his career. Against Greb as a title eliminator to Dempsey in 1922 losing almost every round. Unbelievably he got the shot at Dempsey instead of Greb (probably because he lost) and managed to lose to Dempsey after doing well for the first five or six rounds. Then losing a title eliminator to Tunney in 1925.

Gibbons didnt KO Norfolk until 1924 when Norfolk was nearly blind. Gibbons had in fact been ducking Norfolk since 1917 and maybe as early as 1916.

However, that being said Gibbons was a tremendous fighter with excellent skills, great durability, and a good punch, particularly to the body. In his prime (which was between 1919 and 1922 or 1923, he was a tough proposition for anyone."

But those reasons you listed do take away from the Demspey win abit. I wonder how Dempsey-Tunney would have gone at this point. Still, I know you said Greb beat Gibbons really clearly and dominated (moreso than Demspey did, I'm guessing) the fight and he would have been a REAL handful for Dempsey.

Even Gibbons himself said that this was Harry's "blue-ribbon battle, all primed for the fight at MSG." If I could choose a Greb fight to see on film, it would be this one. Also, most people say that Greb lost his eye in 1921 against Norfork but I've seen one of Harry's cornermen (Albacker?) say he lost it to Jeff Smith in 1922. One fight before the Gibbons fight, that makes it even more impressive because if its true, Greb would not be used to fighting with one eye and against a top guy like Gibbons.

 

I stand by that but I think you are misinterpreting it. When i said between 1919 and 1922 or 1923 I meant after 1919 (when he was still getting back up to speed after the war and had some lackluster performances) and prior to 1922 (the Greb fight) or 1923 (the Dempsey fight) when he had gotten away from the more effective St. Paul style. So no, I dont think he was prime for Dempsey and arguably not even for Greb (I could make a decent case either way) but he still ranks, IMO, as Dempsey's best championship win and defense for several reasons.

And for the record I dont believe Greb lost his vision against Jeff Smith. Albacker stated this but Albacker was a drunk who was known to sell stories (not all of which were true) about Greb in exchange for booze money. It caused problems between he and his brother Jack who was also a close friend of Greb's. More reliable reports place it at the Norfolk fight despite what some revisionists have to say about it.

 

See what you mean, then its quite an achievement at this stage TOmmy was able to make it competitive with Dempsey and trouble him a couple times during the fight. I know youve said Gibbons made Demspey look bad, but I think its a good performacnce, Demps does look pretty good. What would you say are the reasons for this being Dempsey's performance? (just curious becasue your more well versed on the era than the rest of us.)

Thanks for that stuff on Albacker, the article I read said that he and Greb were very close. Greb told Happy that it was 1922, but like you said most accounts say 1921 which is good enough for me. That article also admitted that it was written twenty years after greb's death and there have been lots of myths about him since his death so dont beleive everything you hear about him. It basically admitted that things could be false concerning Greb because he "went before his time."

I dont know how much was fake and how much was true , may have all been false, (as you pointed out the story about Greb's blindness was fake) but there was some interesting stuff in it, could be all fiction. There was an interesting bit about Harry being VERY sensitive about his appearnce and that whenever he asked him friends about how he looked before they went out, they would always say he looked good and kept their mouths shut about his (as they put it) "damaged eye." because they didnt want to offend him or make him mad.

 

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