How Good was tunney's stamina?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by guilalah, Mar 24, 2010.


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  1. guilalah

    guilalah Well-Known Member Full Member

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    In the thread 'A New Perspective Tunney vs Ali: Who Wins?', I expressed a conventional wisdom that Tunney had excellent stamina. Probably I had in mind Fleischer's late 1950's rating of Tunney as the best conditioned heavyweight, and the statement by Dempsey that Marciano reminder him of Tunney, because they both prepared and trained so painstakingly.

    McVey posted a challenge to this conventional wisdom:

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    to enquire whether Tunney indeed had exceptional wisdom, and how we can know whether or not he did.

    Is this view largely passed on oral testimony (which I don't mean to discount out of hand)? Are there ring performances which would lead one to believe Tunney had exceptional stamina?


    In the (hopefully next) post I'll indicate Tunney's fights which went beyond ten rounds.
     
    guilalah, Mar 24, 2010
    guilalah, Mar 24, 2010
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  2. guilalah

    guilalah Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Below are Tunney's matches (I think I have all the relevant ones, apologies if I miss any) that went beyond ten rounds. (I did not want to confine myself to fights going a fifteen round distance because to stop an opponent late may itself be a manifestation of excellent stamina).


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    Cisco Park, Staten Island, New York, United States WPTS 12 12


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    Madison Square Garden, New York, New York, United States WPTS 12 12
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    Madison Square Garden, New York, New York, United States LUD 15 15
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    American Light Heavyweight Title
    Bout broadcast on radio by KDKA
    Pittsburgh Post reported that Tunney fought extremely well. He made a great fight for 10 rounds, but Greb set a pace in the last five that overwhelmed Gene. Tunney's eyebrows were cut and he bled at the nose and mouth. Greb fought his usual fight, all over his man, and chopping him up. Tunney fought Greb much better than Tommy Gibbons had done in New York.




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    Arena, Rockaway Beach, Queens, New York, United States WPTS 12 12





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    Broad A.C., Newark, New Jersey, United States WNWS 12 12



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    Commonwealth Sporting Club, New York, New York, United States WPTS 12 12





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    Madison Square Garden, New York, New York, United States WUD 15 15
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    American Light Heavyweight Title
    Most experts thought that Tunney had an edge by his cleaner blows. Regis Welsh of the Pittsburgh Post thought that Greb was robbed. Greb was the aggressor and Tunney the counterpuncher. Greb was made to observe the rules closely and this undoubtedly curbed his usual free-wheeling style. The fight was undoubtedly closely contested.



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    Queensboro Stadium, Long Island City, Queens, New York, United States WPTS 12 12




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    American Light Heavyweight Title
    The concensus was that Tunney won 9 rounds, Greb four, and two were even. Tunney mounted a body attack that allowed him to dominate the fight from rounds 8 to 14. The first seven rounds were evenly fought and Greb rallied strongly to win the 15th. Greb landed many more punches but Tunney's were harder and cleaner. There were no knockdowns.



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    Coliseum Arena, New Orleans, Louisiana, United States WPTS 15 15
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    CONTINUED IN NEXT POST
     
    guilalah, Mar 24, 2010
    guilalah, Mar 24, 2010
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  3. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    >>>>>>>>
     
    Unforgiven, Mar 24, 2010
    Unforgiven, Mar 24, 2010
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  4. guilalah

    guilalah Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Polo Grounds, New York, New York, United States WTKO 15 15
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    Attendance: 30,000. Tunney had the better of the fight until the tenth when he gave Carpentier a frightful beating, knocking him down three times. Georges fought back heroically, but near the end of the 14th round he went down and the count was at six when the bell rang. Carpentier came out for the 15th but the referee soon stopped it because the Frenchman was in no condition to continue. There was some question that Tunney landed a low blow to floor Carpentier in the 14th, but it was reported that privately-taken films showed no indication of a foul.



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    C oliseum Arena, New Orleans, Louisiana, United States WNWS 15 15
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    Newspaper decision from the Pittsburgh Post. Tunney won decisively. Smith was knocked down in the 12th round for a count of nine, stated to be the first knockdown of his career.



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    Polo Grounds, New York, New York, United States WKO 12 15



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    Public Hall, Cleveland, Ohio, United States WNWS 12 12
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    Yankee Stadium, Bronx, New York, United States WTKO 11 15
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    ~ National Boxing Association World heavyweight title ~
    World Heavyweight Title
    Former Champion Jack Dempsey was in Heeney's corner. Tunney announced his retirement from boxing a few days later.
     
    guilalah, Mar 24, 2010
    guilalah, Mar 24, 2010
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  5. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Tunney looks pretty good in late rounds against Gibbons, Carpentier and Heeney, and beat Greb over 15 rounds. Greb was known to set a pace, to put it mildly.

    As for Ali, we all know about him and it would be ridiculous to doubt his stamina, but I dont think loafing around for 15 rounds with the Jimmy Youngs and Alfredo Evangelistas is much to boast about.
     
    Unforgiven, Mar 24, 2010
    Unforgiven, Mar 24, 2010
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  6. guilalah

    guilalah Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I remember in Heller's interview book, I think it was called 'In This Corner', Loughran remarked to the effect that Greb's stamina was quite unusual.
     
    guilalah, Mar 24, 2010
    guilalah, Mar 24, 2010
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  7. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Nothing to boast about true ,but lets not forget .Ali was 34 when he fought Young and weighed 230lbs 18lbs over his best weight.
    Against Evangelista Ali was 35 and 221 1/4lbs , again nearly 10lbs over his prime weight.
    Tunney retired at 32 ,after only having fought 4 men at ,or over 190lbs.
    And, one over 200lbs.
    Dempsey190lbs
    Dempsey 192 1/2lbs
    Risko 191 lbs
    Heeney 203 1/2lbs
    Spalla 191lbs.
    Tunney was a tough, ice cold ring general ,but what indicates he had more stamina than Ali?
    Was he ever in a situation where he had to prove his endurance against a heavyweight?
    Was there ever a life and death struggle such as the Thrilla In Manila that The Marine had to come through?
    Greb was the bench mark for non stop action ,but he didnt possess great power,or size.
    Going a fast 10/15 rds with a middleweight or light heavy,is not the same as doing it with a man over 200lbs tugging and clinching ,hitting and manhandling you. As Tunney matured ,and grew stronger ,added weight and guile to his repertoire he increasingly began to handle Greb with more confidence , but Greb was not a 200lbs plus heavyweight with power coming at him all night as Frazier ,Norton were
    .Tunney also never had to fight in cauldrons of tropical heat. when he was past his best against younger men.

    Tunney dissected his prospective opponents ,analyzed them ,their weaknesses ,and their strengths.maybe he could have gone 15 torrid rounds with a 6 '3'' heavyweight banger,in his prime , we don't know because he never had to prove it.

    The Dempsey Tunney met was no longer the Mauler, he was a softened version who had lived the Hollywood life ,his legs were not ,the steel springs that used to effortlessly take him into punching range , they had been.
    Tunney's stamina ,must remain a take on trust deal ,imo.
     
    mcvey, Mar 24, 2010
    mcvey, Mar 24, 2010
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  8. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    I think Ali proved his stamina, I was just pointing out that some of those 15-rounders were like tame sparring sessions. Ali was great, he didn't even need to be fit against some of those guys, he just loafed on the ropes and rested in clinches. But it caught up with him. He was lucky against Young and Norton, but not against Leon.

    Anyway, I dont doubt Tunney's stamina. He proved enough for me.
     
    Unforgiven, Mar 24, 2010
    Unforgiven, Mar 24, 2010
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  9. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Tunney has excellent stamina. Maybe even better than Marciano's. Tunney could move, punch, and maintain his foot and hand speed thought 15 rounds. I think Tunney could have been a 20 or 25 round fighter.
     
    Mendoza, Mar 24, 2010
    Mendoza, Mar 24, 2010
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  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Tunney had 6 fights that went into the 15th rd.
    3 with Greb .In the 1st ,he had over 12lbs on Greb and could not keep up with him, he took a terrible beating.
    In the 2nd, the fight was very close , Tunney had a 9lbs weight advantage.
    The third , where they were nearly even, weight wise, Greb finished the stronger man.
    Tunney's other fights at the distance were over a sparring partner Martin Burke 30-15-4 .
    A very faded Carpentier, in the Frenchman's last stab at the big time.
    And a win over a 166 1/2lbs Jeff Smith, who was giving him 12lbs.

    Tunney never had a 200lbs plus heavyweight hitting on him for 15 rds.

    Nothing in his resume indicates to me he could rival Marciano for stamina, he may have done,but the jury is still out imo.
     
    mcvey, Mar 24, 2010
    mcvey, Mar 24, 2010
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  11. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Watch the films. Tunney is fresh in the later rounds of his filmed fights.

    I have seen Rocky get arm weary, and catch a second wind. By the way, Marciano only went 15 rounds once, and it was vs Charles who was not 200 pounds either. So what you are saying to Tunney applies even more to Marciano.

    Don't get me wrong. Both guys had tremendous stamina. I think Rocky could go 20 rounds. I think Tunney could go 20 rounds as well
     
    Mendoza, Mar 24, 2010
    Mendoza, Mar 24, 2010
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  12. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Tunney is fresh ,but he isnt fighting heavyweights.
    Marciano only went 15 rds once because he kod all his other opponents at that distance , it didnt look like he was fading against Walcott did it?
     
    mcvey, Mar 24, 2010
    mcvey, Mar 24, 2010
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  13. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Rocky took Lowry the distance twice, and wasn't close to the KO in either of the 10 round matches. He also took Lastarza the distance in a 10 round match, and was not close to the KO. A trial horse with a losing record in Applegate went 10 rounds and lost a decision to Marciano Are you suggesting that if these fights were 15 rounds, he wins all four by KO/TKO? Judging by the news reads, I think that's a bit of a stretch.

    Marciano in fact looked hurt and tired in round 11 ( He was holding on and looked to be fading ) in the first Walcott fight. Watch the film. To Marcaino's credit, he caught a second wind and got a come from behind KO in round 13.
     
    Mendoza, Mar 25, 2010
    Mendoza, Mar 25, 2010
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  14. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Tunney KO'd Tommy Gibbons in 12, and Tom Heeney in 11, and didn't look to be fading. Not even close to fading. Same with Carpentier, who he KO'd in 15.
    Yes, two of those were smaller men, but it shows he had great stamina.
     
    Unforgiven, Mar 25, 2010
    Unforgiven, Mar 25, 2010
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  15. Boxed Ears

    Boxed Ears this my daddy's account (RIP daddy) Full Member

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    You guys really need to watch this Tunney/Greb footage I have. I'll upload it on youtube for you tomor-whoops. I just spilled pepsi all over it. I'll be right back.
     
    Boxed Ears, Mar 25, 2010
    Boxed Ears, Mar 25, 2010
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