How good was Tyson's stamina?

It's worth noting that he was only getting off 26 a round vs Smith, who displayed none of the attack of Douglas but did a similar job in nullifying what Mike could do. The 33 against Ribalta was for similar reasons.

The longer a fight lasts the more valuable the information is. He only chucked 20 at Carl Williams but that only lasted half a round!

Yeah, I've got a fair bit of this stuff. Numerical stats like this have always tended to interest me, more in terms of applying it as an average or overall view rather than "he threw 14 punches while his opponent threw 13 so he won the round". Looking at how much a fighter tends to rely on a jab over power shots or vice verse, or achieving a balance, that kinda thing.

Off the top of my head, I've got very extensive stats for Lewis. A fair mix for Holyfield (rough since he fought on Showtime so much), and a grab-bag for guys like Moorer, Rahman, Grant, Foreman, Morrison, Toney (at HW) and others.

 

I also really think the laughable lack of equipment in Tyson's corner was a factor. With his eye liable to swell up from Douglas's jabs you needed a proper endswell to take care of it, and without that it ballooned up and would've been more of a hinderance to him seeing the punches coming.

 

Nevertheless, that's a weakness in his game anyway you look at it. A guy also has to listen to his corner which is something Tyson did less and less as time went on.

 

I think all the posts so far have been good and made valid points. DamonD, your work is appreciated, thanks mate.

My personal view is that he did not have the persistent stamina of a 'slow burner' like say Joe Frazier.
To use an analogy, they both had a thousand pieces of coal to throw into the fire, but Tyson shoveled in bucket loads early, whereas Joe would use his more sparingly.
Later on, Joe had more pieces of coal than Tyson to burn. Mike had to now start measuring his coal and taking it more easy.

Tyson because of his style and mentality would burn white hot early and then cool down toward the later rounds. Joe slowed down only a little from first bell to last. They just expended their energy differently, even though they had the same amount of 'fuel' to start with.

I believe his stamina - or the supposed lack thereof - has become overemphasised over the years. Hey, these are heavyweights we're talking about. Only the rarest of breeds showed no ill effect after 12 or 15 rounds. It's only natural the big guys slow down after about the halfway mark, or a bit after that.

I was watching an interesting interview with Buster Douglas the other day on TV, and he stated that he didn't feel Tyson slowing down or becoming weaker as the rounds progressed. He stated that right up until the knockout Tyson felt as strong in the 10th as the first, which surprised me somewhat.

 

Since Mike wasn't able to get off with that many shots, it's reasonable to think that he was still strong by the 10th because he had plenty of coals left in the coal scuttle, if I'm not stretching that to breaking point.

Another thing - the old saying about "the other guy getting stronger" as a fight goes on is explained as one fighter managing to maintain their physical performance better than the other, rather than literally getting stronger. It just feels that way to the more tired fighter.

Douglas must have been getting tired by the 10th and if you watch the fight his work is actually more ragged and broken up for rests by the time we get into the 6th or 7th round or so onwards. He's still fighting well but not in the same volume or dominance as earlier on. So he probably felt Mike's strength more as his own was starting to deteriorate.

Unfortunately for Mike, Douglas still had enough left to deliver the knockout blows. You could even argue that the KD in the 8th gave Douglas the wake-up call, motivation and sheer adrenaline rush to make sure he finished the job...

 

I think you should start some sort of a Wiki-based page where you can look up all those stats.... i did a few on fights of the 70's.



.....Wait, i think i just described Boxrec.

 

I'd love to get those stats too!

Mmm, when I get some spare time later on (and I can get at my notes), I'll probably stick up a thread here for punchstats, for anyone to contribute to...just a handy pool of knowledge when needed.

I already have a catchy name for it

 

I dont see how the stats on Tyson's punch output prove he was out-of-shape for Douglas, seeing as Douglas was beating him pretty good during for most of those 10 rounds.

That would be like finding a Mitch Green ten-rounder where he threw more punches than he did against Tyson, and then declaring is as proof that Tyson beat a sub-par Green and it wasn't really due to his performance !

The stats can be twisted to suit anyone's agenda.
A guy might miss most of his punches and one group claims that's proof that he was having an off-night (since his accuracy rate has ALWAYS been high), whereas another group will say it shows how the opponent completely neutralised his offense with defensive skill !

When a fighter stops punching much it might be because his opponent isn't leaving openings, it might be because the opponent just slammed some dangerous counters in, or because the opponent keeps beating him to the punch. Stats cant tell you what's happening, nor the underlying reasons why it's happening.

 

But they can certainly play a part. That's all I'm saying, and always say...the total dismissal of stats from some quarters as being no use whatsoever always bothers me.

You're looking at it from the view of concentrating on just one fighter as well. How about looking at a bunch of stats for both for comparison?

If we found out that Mitch Green is a very accurate puncher (I knew, just using a name here) but had low accuracy against Tyson...then we also see that Tyson's opponents across the board tend to have low accuracy stats...it's pretty reasonable to assume that it's Tyson making the difference here.

A number is a number, no power or speed attached to it, but when you gather together a good load of them for a fighter their tendancies and characteristics tend to emerge, occasionally interestingly at odds with the general perception.

 

I dont dismiss stats out of hand completely, but I dont go much on them either.

As you must know, it must be an endless mission to find what general tendencies the stats are really showing. For example, the claim that Tyson's punch output against Douglas shows he was performing sub-par, must be checked against whether Douglas's recent form (or Douglas at his best) demonstrates whether or not Douglas has a general statistical tendency to lower the punch output of his opponents !
And to find that out you are led to investigate not only Douglas's statistical tendencies, but those of his opponents, all of which must then be analysed to see whether they are typical or untypical. Meaning you'll have to investigate the stats of the opponents of the opponents, and so on. Obviously, that's absurd, but it's the only way out of the "concentrating on one fight/fighter" flaw.

And even it such was possible, it ignores such basic things as styles and tactics.

That's not to dismiss statistical information out of hand, just saying I dont reckon much of the info being used as the crux of an argument.

Also, I think the stats for Tyson-Bruno 1 would be better indicator of Tyson's decline before facing Douglas, since the Douglas fight was one he was never winning, he just got beat up almost the entire thing. That's the basic point, you cant really prove much with the stats other than the fact that Douglas handed him a beating. It wasn't like Douglas just came to survive, then noticed Tyson wasn't winning the rounds by much, and then took the fight to him. He boxed Tyson's socks off from the opening bell.

 

Mike was unjustly robbed at the last minute of the opportunity to compete against Tony Tucker for 15 rounds, but that was the distance he trained for with TNT.

Peak Tyson wasn't the sort of attrition bodypuncher and infighter that Frazier had been. If he couldn't bomb out somebody early, then he settled down for the long haul, and sat on the lead he accumulated out of the gate. He nearly saved his title with one big shot on Buster Douglas, but didn't have the firepower to do this routinely.

Headbutts are a part of boxing's extracurriculars which need to be defended against effectively, and Mike wasn't very good at safeguarding himself against such tactics (as Jack Johnson did so masterfully against Fireman Flynn). Not being able to defend against headbutts and elbows, or neutralize wrestling and shoving in the trenches means not being able to infight adroitly. I would not have liked Mike's chances with Tony Galento (who probably would have goaded Mike into getting himself disqualified, as this often happens to the retaliator who loses his composure).

With Tyson, it sometimes seemed that each round was a self contained event, not a foundation upon which to build for succeeding rounds. I don't think his stamina was the issue so much as the fact that he just wasn't geared towards trying to wear his opponents down.

Several ringsiders reporting on his win over Mitch Green arrived at the conclusion that it wasn't appropriate to compare his power to that of Foreman or Shavers so much as Frazier's. Before Smoke was upset by Big George, his force was being compared to Marciano's, and likely still would be if Joe had retired after the FOTC.

Tyson's chin was certainly superior to Frazier's, and he struck harder from both sides than Joe did with his right. But like Patterson, he needed more live competition early in his career to test him more.

Machen decisioned Jerry Quarry shortly before taking Smoke ten rounds, and had over 60 fights and 11 years of experience under his belt. Chuvalo was 29 years old, a 15 round veteran, and on the longest winning streak of his career when Joe faced him. True, Scrap Iron was a trial horse, but a trial horse later able to get even Liston to give ground.

Smoke came off the deck twice against Bonavena in Ringo's first match after sending the normally sure footed Chuvalo to the floor two times as well (falls which just as easily could have been ruled official knockdowns as well as slips). Doug Jones was an extremely formidable 29 year old 15 round veteran who would remove Boone Kirkman from the unbeaten ranks in his next outing.

Don't forget that Frazier won his gold medal with a fractured left thumb, so he'd already had to prevail through severe adversity by the time he began punching for pay.

Heart, determination, composure and confidence are a large part of being able to maintain good stamina. Having the experience of succeeding through arduous trials by fire during formative periods also play a role.

Tyson's most valuable pre championship win was over Ribalta, but Jose had been dropped at least twice before, and it would be something of a stretch to class him with the likes of a peak Chuvalo, veteran Doug Jones, saavy Machen or a nearly 24 year old Bonavena. Needed risks weren't taken at a crucial stage of Mike's evolution, chances which posed a real threat to the preservation of his spotless record.

Marciano was tossed into sink or swim situations many times early on. Like Frazier, he wasn't simply set up with easy wins to build him up. Hence, he was oven tempered to steel strength. Marciano and Frazier discovered early on the value of always being prepared for any degree of resistance. Tyson had it too easy.

Bottom line is that Tyson simply didn't have the mental stamina to try withstanding the strongest winds, or the fortitude which enabled Frazier to take on an Oscar Bonavena, Muhammad Ali, Jerry Quarry or George Foreman, a second time in nontitle competition. (It's one thing to be a reigning champion who can be required to defend against a top contender, but quite another to choose taking on the toughest previous opponents in nontitle affairs which can produce career ending results. Joe was expected to lose his rematch with Jerry. And stepping into the ring a second time with a young Foreman took major guts. Tyson wouldn't even consider it with antique George.)

 

True, punch output is not necessarily indicative of inadequate conditioning. Other factors which can suggest lack of sufficient preparation have to do with how well one evades punishment, withstands it, or recovers from it. Checking out the punch stats for Tyson's opponents might prove revealing. What percentage of punches did Douglas land during his completed rounds with Mike, as opposed to the accuracy of Smith, Green, Tucker or Tillis over ten rounds?