How great was Carpentier really?

[quote=bodhi;12405440]Klaus is so underrated nowadays.

:good



Given that Ketchel beat him, quite clearly if I remember right, shows how good Ketchel must have been.

Ketchel didn't beat him. It was a newspaper draw. Both men lost, really. The fight was an awful clinchfest and it was widely believed to have been a "fake". As a result Ketchel's other engagements in Pittsburgh were cancelled and he was pretty much hounded out of town and told never to come back. The newspapers really let him have it with both barrels. Even Klaus was accused of being complicit in the whole shenanigans. Klaus was angry at the accusation and shot back that he'd never fight in Pittsburgh again. The statement made him lose face in the Smoky City and the town never really warmed up to him again.

 

Because Genaro claimed it was a low blow and the ref didnt allow it. One of the judges was American and agreed with Genaro and his manager that the blow was below the belt. Pladner signed to fight Fidel LaBarba but due to the controversy over his win against Genaro was forced into an immediate rematch. In the rematch the same thing happened and this time it was agreed by the officials (minus the french judge) that Pladner had fouled.

 

I understand that. But the other officials--including the referee-- said it was a clean body blow. So which sources are the most reliable?

My understanding was that it was a legit KO win for Pladner, who was also topping Genaro in the second fight before the DQ was called. The French were not happy about it and a near riot ensued. Many felt that the Genaro camp had complained so vociferously about the results of the first fight that any complaints re: low blows in the second were given prejudicial credence that perhaps they didn't deserve.

Do we have any French-speaking posters here who can give us the reports from the next-day French newspapers?

 

You have to remember that just about every fighter who was knocked-out by a body shot back before there were tv cameras everywhere tried to claim it as a "foul" blow (Abe Attell was notorious for it). That's why I want to hear more from the primary source reports and see if there was a big controversy by others besides just Genaro, his corner and an American judge.

 

Carp probably wan't great but the Gunboat, Wells, and especially the Jeannette fight removes for me the notion that he was a fraud, also the aforementioned comments of Loughran are impressive.

 

Im not saying one was right over the other but some of the sources Ive read make it pretty clear there was definately some controversy over the fight and that it was hardly conclusive.

Pladner was a body puncher but he was also known to the throw them low on occasion. In fact one of his next fights also ended on a low blow DQ.

The most detailed account Ive read of the second fight states that the fight was even after four rounds but that Pladner was dominating the fifth when the stoppage occured.

I think its also important to remember that these bouts took place in Pladners back yard and France isnt exactly known as the most unbiased of countries.

But, you are right, its possible that it was a legitimate KO.

 

Isnt that more of an indictment on the current sad state of boxing than a boost to Georges Carpentier's credentials? Just a thought.

 

A prety good thought.

 

Loughran said similar things in the book "In This Corner ..."

He goes into a bit of detail about Carpentier's strengths. He can't emphasize enough how impressed he was with Carpentier's ability.

And, to be fair, whatever Carpentier said, he must have been at least 5, maybe more than 10 years, past his best.