How High Can Liston Be Reasonably Ranked?

Liston doesn't have much resume depth. He beat around 6 guys ranked in the top 10. He would have a better legacy had he done a better job of cleaning out his era.

 

Why? Jeffries only lost when he was way, way past his prime and beat as many champions and contenders as Liston did, at least. He also didn't quit on his stool against Johnson, but gave it it all despite being severly outmatched (as you would expect from someone coming straight back from a five year lay-off).

And Johnson beat way many more contenders than Liston and had a longer stretch as top dog, so to me there's daylight between him and Liston in terms of resumes.

 

That's crazy talk, though

 

H2H he is devastating. Probably the greatest puncher in heavyweight history next to The Brown Bomber. Perhaps even more powerful than Louis if not quite as precise and accurate. Sonny was a slugger/boxer. He always seemed to remember to use that vicious leftjab.
Angelo Dundee scouted Sonny Liston and was ringside when Ang said " I saw him knock a guy's teeth out one time with his jab"

Sonny Liston could knock your brains loose.

 

This is a revisionism that's easy to refute, but just won't go away.

Liston only came into the top 10 in 1958, likely towards the end of that year. He was in no way in line for a title shot. Not in 59 either.

And let's say that there was no rematch clause between Floyd and Ingo. The most deserving challenger in late 59/early 60, when Ingo likely would have signed for the first challenge of his title, was Folley.

Only for the next title fight would Liston be the clear nr 1, so he wouldn't get his shot until 61, or late 60 at the very earliest, in any case unless he jumped the queu. We know now that he was the best out there, but in 58-59 he hadn't yet proved this.

 

I have him between 10 - 15.

 

Oh yeah.

Liston I place in the top 7 h2h, just outside the 10 ATG.

 

I have him just outside of the top 10....
Louis/Ali
Holmes/Lewis
Foreman/Wlad
Rocky/Frazier/Tyson/Holyfield/Johnson

I can’t see him above any of those guys, but if I wanted to be lenient I would say 8 or so is the highest I could see him?

as is I find him behind those guys and on the 12-14 plane with Dempsey and Jeffries.

 

Class post, John. As always

 

It is not that Liston lost to Ali that should hurt his ranking, but HOW he them, the first fight though he was being out box, he just quit on his stool. As for the 2nd fight? Beats me lol. It was a good coming in punch, but I do not think it could of put Liston down for the count. Had both fights been out pointed, ref stoppages. There is no real need for the ranking drop. As for the all time thing? Ali and Louis are 1 and 2, than 3 and down is up for grabs. I can see a top 6 and down, but I think 3-5 has strong claims with the likes of Marciano, Lewis, Wlad, Johnson, Frazier maybe, Foreman, Holyfield, Tyson, Holmes, I mean that alone is asking way to much to be Liston imo for a top 3 all time.

 

Why is putting Johnson over Liston a stretch? He beat the best Black fighters on the way to the title, than beat the best white fighters as champ. He is more than proven imo.

 

His position fluctuates between being above or below Ezzard Charles on my list but I think I have him now at no. 13, one place below Charles. A solitary title defense isn't much to write home about so in terms of championship reign, he doesn't stand out. He was a better contender than a champion, really. H2H? I still think he'd be a handle for anyone in his '59-'60 incarnation. But I can't put him top 10 on achievement.

 

Absolutely spot on.

 

Sonny Liston annihilated Floyd Patterson then lost to a very young Muhammad Ali.

For Sonny to make the top ten you have to upgrade a lot of mediocre fighters...most of whom were losing fights to other contenders and not really elite championship calibre fighters. Just good names comparable with many other forgotten pre title opposition for most established champions. These are shared among champions within the top ten who beat a lot more champions and won more historically significant fights than Sonny Liston did.

Having said that, in a winning fight, Sonny was as impressive a fighter as you can see on film. with wonderful attributes that obviously stand up. It is easy to see why it is utterly acceptable for Liston to be rated very high within a top ten on a “head to head basis” for many serious aficionados of the sport.

However, In my opinion, a rating based mostly on this issue of guesswork, should not be at the expense of champions with deeper resumes.

 

At his best, he could hang with just about anyone. George Foreman seems to think so as well.

Sparring with Liston is the most dangerous thing that I ever did in my entire life. As I said earlier, no matter what I tried against him, it was me who had to revert back to boxing. Nobody made me box like Sonny Liston did and that happened every time we worked together. He taught me many things, including the importance of the jab. I just couldn’t get mine straight and every day he had me working on it. There were times when he could have knocked my head off but he didn’t because we were pretty good friends. I saw the way he stared at people and I took on some of that behavior to intimidate opponents. That was where some of that “Bad George” came from, hanging around with Sonny.

Foreman fought just about everyone from Ali, Frazier, Norton, Lyle in his prime to Holyfireld, Cooney, Moorer, Qawi, Morrison, Briggs etc. When he was in his 40's. It's clear, how powerful and talented Sonny was by George's comments.