How hyped were you for Holmes vs Cooney?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by ChrisPontius, Mar 18, 2008.


  1. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I was at Cooneys one round destuction of Lyle and went into his dressing room afterwoods, a friend of mine was a boxing judge and good friends with Victor Valle and I had met Gerry before. I knew Cooney could hit with the hook but had also seen him lose in the amatuers as a light heavy. I thought he was frail (other than the hook) he should have been put in the ring with a durable no danger type like Tex Cobb (just to get the 10 rds under his belt. Also Cooney fought 2 rounds in 2 years leading up to Holmes and I had seen him out in clubs in N.Y., he was a drinker and the bouncers in the club told me he made frequent trips to the bathroom to powder his nose. As a fight fan I was thinking, he could have a chance with his power but that was wishfull thinking. Cooney did nothing to prepare himself for Larry Holmes who was a 12 rd fighter. The way Cooney lost was about the same way he had lost when I seen him vs Davis for the N.Y. GG's. a TKO with Gerry on his feet. I think Gerry could have been better prepared and in my mind I could not overcome the doubts I had about him. I did not think he could win.
     
  2. Bill1234

    Bill1234 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Well, I wasn't born yet, but I was excited to see once I got interested into boxing and read into it a bit. When I saw it for the first time, I wasn't disapointed. I thought it was a pretty good fight. Gerry was a competetive, but not great fighter in against a prime and game ATG fighter. He didn't make a fool of himself though. He put on a very fine last effort in the 10th.
     
  3. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    Cocaine is one hell of a drug..... :(
     
  4. ThinBlack

    ThinBlack Boxing Addict banned

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    I knew Larry was going to win, but it was an exciting time.Closed Circuit TV, and two of the top three heavyweights taken out in one night.
     
  5. zadfrak

    zadfrak Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Man, I didn't like but loved Holmes at those odds when the bout happened.

    I actually thought Cooney was a .500 fighter if he'd fought his top 10 youthful contemporaries as opposed to the old guys he made his reputation on. He hardly had a stellar defense and his footwork wasn't much either, so a jabber and mover could turn him all night. And since Holmes fought very very well backing up, I figured Cooney's best chance would be an exchange. Aside from that, he'd be following slowly and eating jabs while trying to catch up to plant his feet to throw.

    Another huge advantage was the trainers & management of both guys. It's pretty much 180 degrees apart if you're going into a Don King bout/eddie Futch as opposed to the likes bobsie twins and Victor Valle. Huge disadvantage.

    I was surprised the bout went as long as it did. But this wasn't the Holmes of 79 or so and he was definately slipping. And I was surprised at the effectiveness Cooney showed from time to time. But Cooney had zero head or upper body movement and leaned into punches and anybody with those defensive liabilities facing a Larry Holmes is going to eat jabs and right hands.
     
  6. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    Some condensed thoughts

    Cooney was 50% hype job.

    His power was indeed no joke, 100% real, but his skill level left a lot to be desired when put under the litmus test.

    Cooney's managers took the road to least resistence vs the road to give him his best actual chance of winning. There were loads of good boxers at the time wanting a piece of the Cooney money, hell they might get more than for an actual title shot. Page was swooning for a showdown as were others. Cooney should have fought 2 to 3 more fights then took on Weaver - if successful a unification would have demanded 20 mill as opposed to 10. But he also would have been a better fighter for it, BUT he may have also been beaten and therefore lost his big money Holmes fight. Maybe he really did have a coke habit and the whacko's wanted to get him his money before they thought he might burn out. Who knows.

    The Cooney hype machine had so many experts picking him it was astounding. Holmes was so underrated! And disliked if one follows my train. I have a mag somewhere with oodles of expert predictions, Cooney comes out in front. I blame many factors - Holmes underrated, Cooney being white, Holmes being disliked, Cooney's power being so exciting combined with the division being boring etc.

    Holmes took the path of least resisitence in the fight too. He knew Cooney's only chance of winning was via knockout, and if he bided his time and went safety first he was fine. Tho he could have got him out sooner he fought a fine fight. He dominated without taking chances, much like vs Shavers. Cooney still had flawed basics.

    Holmes was much more vulnerable to big punches from the other side to Cooney's preferred.

    Holmes spent time with a martial arts instructor due to the immense importance of blocking Cooney's frightening body shots. The said instructor showed him the best way to keep his elbows.

    What a top undercard!!!!! Among others, Page - Berbick, Gomez - Lopez, Davis - Sutherland, Tillis - Shavers.
     
  7. Lobotomy

    Lobotomy Guest

    I have to tell you Chris, since you began this thread I have reviewed Cooney/Young a few times. Until Gerry's left suddenly ripped open Jimmy's face, that contest was going entirely in Young's favor, something Gil Clancy repeatedly expressed to Dick Stockton from ringside during the live CBS telecast. (Fortunately, this live commentary is currently available on youtube.)

    Jimmy was exerting himself very little, had entered the ring in the best physical condition he had worked himself into since the split decision loss to Norton, and was getting Gerry to expend himself by headhunting much more than he should have been. Young had gotten through the first couple of rounds against the fastest starting contender in boxing at that time with no difficulty, and was scoring effectively with his left, both to Cooney's face and body. (In fact, Jimmy displayed a much more dedicated body assault than Gerry, prior to the fight ending cut. Young's low knockout percentage record sometimes prevents recently arrived boxing aficionados from realizing what an outstanding bodypuncher he was. Norton, in effect, used Jimmy's own downstairs strategy against him for point scoring purposes.)

    Not only had Young succeeded in making Gerry work much harder than he himself was, but Jimmy was actually succeeding in walking Cooney backwards, against the ropes and corners. (For all his size and punching power, Gerry may have been the physically weakest top heavyweight contender of his day for decades surrounding his prime.) As we know, Cooney's headhunting did in fact pay dividends, and it was indeed a punch, not a clash of heads or elbow, which opened up Young's face, blinding his right eye.

    While I agree with Clancy that Cooney was not fighting intelligently before Jimmy's blood started flowing, it should also be pointed out that Young was extremely tough and resilient, as well as smart. He came off the deck to draw with Shavers in their rematch, a ten rounder most in attendance thought Jimmy deserved to take the decision in. Weighing just 197 pounds, Young swept the last five rounds, and had Earnie ready to go at anytime in the last two. Shavers had gone ten rounds with clever Bob Stallings in his previous fight, would take out Rochelle Norris in ten rounds less than five months later, decision Henry Clark over ten in their first match behind his jab, and knock out Tiger Williams in ten rounds to close out a sensational 1976 campaign (in what was arguably the most sensationally epic victory of Earnie's career). So the version of Shavers which Young got the better of over ten rounds was the most durable version of Earnie we ever got to see.

    Now, the reason I brought up Young/Shavers II, is because Earnie was also a very dedicated body puncher, as he demonstrated over all ten rounds with Tiger. But Jimmy could really take it downstairs without wilting, much like Ali. (Proving it against Foreman as well as Shavers.) If Gerry was going to try taking Young out with bodyshots, he may well have been very disappointed. Norton had the right idea. Attack Jimmy's body to steal the scorecards. Of course a point scoring body attack is best executed from long range, where all three scorers can clearly see them land. Gerry had the ideal right hand with which to do that.

    Even attacking Jimmy downstairs for scoring points was hardly assuring a successful outcome. A year and a half after Cooney, Franco Thomas pounded away at Young's now flabby midriff. Jimmy returned the favor to his poorly toned opponent. But underneath the sagging adipose tissue of both, they were still in shape. With each cancelling out the body attack of the other, Young's accuracy upstairs made the difference.

    If Jimmy Young had not been cut against Cooney, then I believe Gerry would have sustained the first professional defeat on his record. My supposition is that Valle, Jones and Rapaport also realized this. That's why they went with safe, but high profile opponents Lyle and Norton to build up for Holmes. Lyle had just been blown out in two by Lynn Ball. Norton had been destroyed by Shavers, and it was Earnie's left hook which initially stunned Norton. (Ironically, it was Cooney's right which started Kenny on the way down. Earnie's hook and Gerry's right are somewhat underrated punches. It took a while, but Cooney had finally developed a right to complement his left by the time he took on Young. Victor Valle did a masterful job of improving it between mid 1979 and mid 1980, with that custom designed therapeutic overhead "Valle Bag" for strengthening Gerry's atrophied right arm and shoulder muscles.)

    Cooney/Young was the key factor in convincing me that Gerry could not decision Holmes. He would have to take Larry out. Cooney's toughness and durability were unknowns until Holmes decked him. (The scoring of Duane Ford and Dave Moretti for that one is still a mystery to me, even after hearing both of them explain why they scored so many points in favor of Cooney, in a round by round post-fight audit interview. Dave Moretti would eventually be one of the judges scoring against Larry when Mike Spinks challenged him.)

    Gerry was also fortunate that blood from the cut he inflicted did blind Jimmy's right eye. If Young's vision had not been impaired, then Cooney's determined targeting of that wound might have exhausted him very quickly, Jimmy's cut serving as nothing more than a deadly lure for Gerry to wear himself chasing after. (When Cooney saw blood, he went nuts going after it, but still wasn't able to hurt a partially blinded Young.)

    A final word about Jimmy Young. Although he never became a champion, I believe that he represents proof that a sub 200 pounder can become the HW champion again someday. In the years since his heyday, nobody has come along with superior physical strength and punching power to what Foreman and Shavers possessed. Boxing is ultimately a sport of skill and toughness. If endowed with these qualities in sufficient abundance, even the force of a Foreman and Shavers can be neutralized. (If Tyson could take Jimmy out, his speed, not power, would be the key. But I would never put money on the outcome between Young/Tyson, Young/Liston, or Jimmy Young versus many other "awesome" performers, certainly not on any such "irresistible force" being able to take Jimmy out.)

    Anyhow, my two cents, for whatever it's worth.
     
  8. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    Yes, Young was very relaxed in there and definitely in control, the ring general. I think this loss was his coup de grace considering his mentality, focus and confidence in the ring. Young had always been very durable: when his face was all blooded and he took shot after shot, he was never really hurt.

    Young was indeed a bit of a risky fight: even if he was on the slide, you don't wanna put a slugger that hasn't gone beyond 8 in with an extremely skilled, slick and tough boxer like Young who has good stamina in addition to that.


    By the way, what happened to your Duodenum account?
     
  9. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    Young actually wasn't over the hill vs Cooney and sure proved it.

    I'm certain it's still open as he posted as Duo after this account appeared. He seems a bit coy on this one, as i'm sure you've noticed :D
     
  10. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I was about a year away fom getting into boxing, but I remember buying a Newsweek magazine for another reason the week after the fight, and they had a big writeup on it, cool photos too. One was of Cooney burying that left into Holmes' groin and Holmes doubled over just after that.

    That definitely left an impession, as I'm sure it did Holmes. :lol:
     
  11. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    Oh, and i watched this fight live too, young as i was.
     
  12. redrooster

    redrooster Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I didnt appreciate the treatment Holmes got from the media so I was going for Larry. Gerry was a legitimate challenge tho.
     
  13. Action

    Action Active Member Full Member

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    The event surpassed the hype. There was a crackle of electricity in the air that night at the Tennis Pavilion of Caesar's Palace. It may be forgotten but there were five current or future champions on the card that night. In addition to Holmes Wilfredo Gomez, Greg Page, Trevor Berbick, Murray Sutherland also appeared...plus...Earnie Shavers, James "Quick" Tillis and Mitch "Blood" Green!
    What a card....what an event. Don King and Dennis Rappaport built it into a happening with front page coverage for days.
    I have seen many top events including NBA championships, NFL and MLB playoffs adn numerous world title fights but have never experienced the atmosphere as I did at Holmes-Cooney.
     
  14. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Holmes vs Cooney, ah yes, I remember it well. As a kid I was a Holmes fan and watched many of his televised fights. At age 10-11, I really did not understand the white hope angle the media was playing, but I do remember being one of the few people in my neighborhood rooting for Holmes. Cooney grew up just a few towns away from where I was based, so being a Holmes wasn’t exactly kosher.

    A white hope in those days got a lot of press, but if he’s actually well known amateur from New York, forgetaboutit!

    The fight itself was aired via closed circuit TV in movie theaters. The next day the papers were flooded with Holmes vs Cooney. Even the re-broadcast of the fight on HBO was an event. Looking back, Cooney melted under the spotlight and media. He also lacked the experience to beat Holmes, though Cooney did put up a game effort and probably won say 5- 6 of the 13 rounds before the stoppage. Holmes himself said the fight was extremely hard to prepare for.
     
  15. Longhhorn71

    Longhhorn71 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    "What did you expect of it? The fight had been building up for more than a year. Did you think he was a hype job or the real deal?"[/quote]

    For me, it was a good fight with quite a big buildup.

    Me and my Oil & Gas buddies all went over to a friend's apartment to watch the fight.

    Dallas was just getting home PPV on cable TV then.

    Just about the time the Holmes-Cooney fights is to start, a big thunderstorm comes thru town and knocks out the PPV portion of the cable.

    Our host then tries to re-activate his purchased signal......but the entire City of Dallas is doing the same thing.

    He keeps punching the button over & over until the signal finally comes back on.

    At the end of the month, the cable company sent him a bill for 150 purchases at a cost of $3000 (& we couldn't pay him off with just a couple of six-packs from his buddies).

    That is what I remember the most about Holmes-Cooney