How is Charley Burley rated?

Astute observations!!! Burley really does seem like one of those special generational fighters.

Yes, it should be noted Burley was only a 5'9 160lb man fighting a 6'0 172lb fighter who was ranked # 5 in the world at a weight class above him (unheard of today). Oakland Billy Smith was coming off a knockout victory over hall of famer Lloyd Marshall and he would fight to a draw with future hall of fame champions Archie Moore 3 months later. 8 years after this fight took place, Oakland Billy Smith knocked out hall of fame Harold Johnson in 2 rounds. Burley dominated Smith.

 

On another note it's good to see you back adding a lot of factual content from these era's.

Yeah I'd taken most of that into account. He'd be a live match with anyone ever at 147 and IMO would beat more of the top 10 than he would lose to. His assets and style would be well suited vs just about any type of fighter IMO. He's cat like fast himself, solid fundamentally even if unorthodox and can bang. He's got a bit of RJJ in him but with much more use of the jab.

 

Terrific thread, this.

 

a Great thread, sounds all very familiar too.

throughout Boxing History, these type of machinations in securing Titles, Fighters and Investor Interests has always been done & employed against Dozens of Fighters.

Shamefully too, young men. boys really, exploited & cheated by unscrupulous business.

 

Alright. You got me.

Billy Conn beat Tony Zale on February 13, 1942 and enlisted in the U.S. Army on March 8, 1942. Conn didn't duck Burley. He joined the Army during World War II.

Billy Conn didn't even have a title to defend. He vacated it in 1941 to fight Joe Louis.

What "title" are they referring to?

Again, Billy Conn enlisted in the U.S. Army on March 8, 1942. Charley Burley fought Jay D. Turner (a heavyweight with a sub-500 record) five days AFTER Conn enlisted.

Conn was already in the miltitary when that fight took place.

The Ring Magazine covers in 1942 tended to have a consistent theme ... join the fight against the Nazis.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0469/5733/0588/products/1484934647_grande.jpg?v=1599659059

https://media.gettyimages.com/photo...and-joe-louis-picture-id158469244?s=2048x2048

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/XHcAAOSwgtBfxuJA/s-l500.jpg

And, after asking for a Ring magazine cover, Burley lost four of six fights that year to Ezzard Charles, Holman Williams and Lloyd Marshall ... which doesn't exactly warrant a cover article.

Instead, the year concluded with an image of Featherweight Champion Chalky Wright who was about to defend his title against Willie Pep.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/qiIAAOSwl1diCYQN/s-l1600.jpg

Like I posted earlier, and Klompton posted, there are many reasons why people don't get title shots. Sometimes events pop up when you're on the cusp (like World Wars) that prevent it ... (Zale enlisted in April 1942) ... and sometimes you lose four of six ... both of which happened to him that year.

Of course he wasn't going to be named the "most logical" contender for the Zale-Graziano winner. It was considered one of the greatest fights in boxing history. Everyone at the time wanted to see the rematch. And that's what they got.

The guy rated above him in those ratings you posted, Jake Lamotta, literally had to wait for the Zale-Graziano trilogy to conclude ... wait for Cerdan to get a shot ... AND LAMOTTA HAD TO TAKE A DIVE himself against Billy Fox (a black fighter) IN 1947 ... to get a title shot.

He didn't get it because he was white. He took the dive that apparently Burley wouldn't. (Was Burley, in 1947, referring to a DIVE offer extended to LaMotta the he, Burley, turned down?)

If Lamotta didn't take the dive, he wouldn't have gotten a title shot either.

Honestly, you could take any contender today who wants to fight big name opponents and do the same shtick.

"I want to fight Canelo. That fight would be huge! I called out Golovkin but he didn't call me back. I want both Charlos but their promoter is protecting them. Nobody will fight me." And then you lose four out of six to close the year.

 

Fighters from one division don't fight fighters in the next division up these days and win?

It literally happens ALL the time.

The only difference today would be the fight between the 160 pounder and the 172 pounder would be contracted at welterweight and they'd have both weighed 147 about 30 hours before the fight at the weigh-in. (That last part is sarcasm.)

 

Racism was still rife in the 1940's of course, but it probably had a lot to do with the latter as well.

 

Good post.

I do put stock in the praise he got from Moore, Futch, Arcel etc, which points to him being a special talent. But in the end, when rating a fighter it's his resume I look at, what he actually did in the ring, and, as you say, his resume doesn't stand out like that.

The praise he got is still interesting, because it hints at what he possibly could have done under other circumstances.

 

I think a talent like Burley would find it easier today to find good management and the big fights, so probably would have more success.

 

Burley was of certain great fighter.
but when if you hear this stories of all well known name fighters avoid him even with big money offer. because he so good. no. it is not true. why how would it be? there must be other reason. boxer are not so afraid to lose fight. certainly in the era. for big money offer. no . turn down good money because do not want to lose to great fighter? no. it cannot add up. it is not sense. reason might be something of boxing politic. might be his manager was ******* or liar or something haha

or stories he runs out of gym big champion boxers! no. this gym stories are exaggerating in boxing. everywhere you see it. Hear it. boxing people lots of them they do like to tell the stories. it is fun. it becomes exaggerating and it is fun. they start to believe it. the myths of gym. I been there.
if Burley was attempt to get big money fight with the big name boxer . the " last thing :' he will do is show it off to be superior at gym.
this is not sensible stories. exaggeration

 

today they can all be championship of world in many weight division
& With less than 35 fight
& earn the millions

all contenders of the era of Burley can pick at least 1 world title belt & big money

 

ahh the dubble deuce . Haven’t seen you since you went off about Nino Valdes years ago

It doesn’t happen all the time

figjters today don’t weigh 160lb and step into ring against a 172lb man. Can you provide example of middleweight doing that?

 

What does this prove? This is Burley's story. I have no trouble believing he was asked to take a dive but for all you know he was asked to take a dive against another black fighter. Furthermore its not like this was exclusive to black fighters. Jake LaMotta was asked to take a dive. Rocky Graziano was asked to take a dive, more than once. We could be here all day if we wanted to tally the list of fighters, black and white, who were asked to take dives.

A couple of points: 1. For at least half of the time Burley was rated there was a war on and the titles were frozen. 2. As we all know, simply being rated in the top ten, whether its unofficially by Ring MAGAZINE or officially by the NBA doesnt qualify you as being the logical contender in your division. You need to be rated at the top and Burley wasnt rated at the top in each of the divisions he was rated for a VERY short time before and after the war. 3. For the majority of time before the war that Burley was rated in the top ten the champion in his division was black so that doesnt bode well for the argument that Burley was denied a title shot because he was black.

This story has been repeated so many times its become gospel, unfortunately it doesnt jive with the facts. When Zivic purchased Burley's contract he was already obligated to defend his title against Freddie Red Cochrane and lost his title. Less than six months later the war broke out and before the war even broke out Cochrane was already in the Navy and not fighting title fights, this prevented Zivic from getting a rematch to win back his title. So no, Zivic purchasing Burley's contract had zero impact on Burley getting a title shot and that period was very short lived anyway. Furthermore, Burley wasnt even the top rated contender at the time. Kaplan and Jannazzo were rated above Burley. They have more claim to being upset about not getting a shot during this period than Burley. But they are white so that isnt going to fit your narrative.

Again, this is Burley's story. Explain to me A. Why his managers would sell Burley's contract "for very little" to Zivic out of the kindness of their hearts in the hopes that Zivic would get Burley a title shot when even Zivic, who had just lost his title, couldnt get a rematch??? Surely he deserved a rematch more than Burley. By Burley's own admission here the timeline is all wrong for the supposed story that Zivic purchased Burley's contract so he wouldnt have to fight him. "He promised me a title shot at Freddie Cochrane for the title. Never got it, though." How many managers have promised their fighters a shot at the title without being able to deliver?

Cochrane joined the Navy before the war even started and shortly after Pearl Harbor was attacked and the titles were frozen. This effected every fighter in every division, not just Burley. And Burley wasnt FORCED to do anything. He could have continued to fight welterweights if he wanted but the fact is that as enlistment into the armed services ramped up the ranks of active fighters got thin and big fights got thinner so if you wanted to make money you had to get fights where you could. Again, this wasnt a problem that was exclusive to Burley.

This is a perfect example of why Otty is either obtuse or biased. Tommy O'Loughlin didnt take over Burley's contract until the war had started. That means this offer came when Cochrane was in active service with the Navy and his title was frozen. Its easy to offer pie in the sky numbers if you know the fight cannot possibly be made.

Funny, because at this point in time Burley was not in the top three of the WWs and very shortly he would jump to middleweight where it took him over a year to get rated in the top five.

Dont act like Cochrane was just in hiding. He wasnt. You know the titles were frozen during the war. Nobody was promoting title fights. Cochrane was an active duty service member for nearly the entirety of his reign with no ability to go into a long training camp for a title fight. What he did after the war is immaterial as Burley was no longer a WW at that point and it didnt have any impact on his ability to get a title fight.

This is probably the funniest example youve set down. I guess Billy Conn should have dropped any idea of a $100,000 payday, a shot at the HW title, and the biggest fight that could be made at that time, in order to fight Burley for 1/10 that amount in Minneapolis... I guess we can spin that as Conn, the white guy, being racist and not wanting to fight the scary black welterweight. Instead hed rather fight that most dangerous black fighting machine on the planet.

LOL. "My fighter is unpopular, can you please put him on your cover so I can sell more tickets"

Whats so special about beating J.D. Turner. He was an opponent level fighter. A tomato can, who lost to everybody. Tammy Mauriello knocked him out in a round. Was he better than Conn?

 

This fight was a blip on the radar in New York. McQuillan had won just 1 of his last 11 fights and most of the New York papers gave the fight nothing more than a sentence or two. But you go on thinking this was a monumental event that scared everyone in New York from fighting Burley.

Isnt it interesting that so many of these fighters who were so good they were denied a chance at the title just happened to be fighting at a time when the titles were frozen? Weird coincidence huh?

When mob connected manager Lew Burston cant get you fights it tells you all you need to know. Burley couldnt draw flies.

Yet another one of Otty's stories for which he offers zero sources.

Well, lets see, one month after these ratings Burley lost to Lytell and was dropped way down in the ratings. It took Cerdan a year and a half and having to give a piece of his contract to the mob to get his title shot. It took Lamotta, rated number one, two and a half years and a thrown fight to get his title shot. Abrams had a title shot before the war, not after these ratings. I will never argue that Graziano deserved his shot over any middleweight rated in the top ten. The fact that all of these guys had to give themselves to the mob and Burley lost his ranking one month later doesnt really help your argument.

 

Make it light/junior middleweight and it's not even sarcasm. It's fact.