How is Usyk better than Canelo P4P?

It's called challenging Usyk fans and neutrals to explain what makes him better than Canelo P4P. This all started because after Usyk's win over Bellew several posters put out P4P lists with Usyk higher than Canelo. All I wanted to know was "How"? Sounds simple enough. I listed plenty of reasons how Canelo is better, and I wanted to hear from the other side, from Usyk fans.

 

I still think that the focus is too much on resume when comparing P4P. Allow me to use this example to better illustrate what the point of this topic is. If you wanted to decide who was a better P4P fighter : Prime Roy Jones Jr or Prime Floyd Mayweather Jr, would you really use "resume" to compare them and make an argument as to who was a better fighter in their prime?

Isn't answering that question more about looking at what made them so good in their prime, rather then go through the names of fighters on their resume or their accomplishments?

To have a P4P debate on who was better in their prime P4P Roy Jones Jr or Floyd Mayweather Jr, you would be discussing what each fighter is good at and compare and contrast those fighters as far as what made them better in differrent categories. Many still say that RJJ in his prime was greater P4P than Floyd Mayweather ever was based on how fast he was, how explosive his punchers were, how hard he was to hit in his prime, and just how unbeatable he looked during his prime years. FMJ never had the aura of invinciblity and that explosiveness during his prime like RJJ had before RJJ slowed down and declined. Though in his prime FMJ has other attributes that make him better than RJJ, like more solid tight defense that didn't require super speed.

So comparing 1997 RJJ to 2007 FMJ for example, you'd go through what each fighter is good at and come to a conclusion as to who is better P4P. I bet many would still argue that Prime RJJ was better P4P than Prime Floyd, even though we all recognize that Floyd never lost over the latter part of his career. Those are really looking at two different things : deciding who had a better career (I bet most would say Floyd due to him never losing mainly) and who was better P4P in their prime (I bet a lot of fans would say RJJ was due to his superhuman speed and his explosiveness).

So that's what I'm looking for here in this topic : a debate about what makes the current version of Usyk better than the current version of Canelo. In the same way that if you wanted to give reasons why 1997 RJJ was better than 2007 Floyd, you'd talk about the speed of RJJ vs the defense of Floyd, or Floyd's jab and straight rights vs RJJ's hooks or uppercuts, etc etc. Those are the things you would talk about when deciding who was better in their prime RJJ or FMJ. You wouldn't talk about resume, though, would you? That's why I don't see why so many posters continue to talk about resume when comparing fighters P4P. It should be about the fighter you are, your performances, how effective you are in the ring. Making it about other stuff like resume doesn't make sense to me, because that's not really what P4P is about.

Don't get me wrong, resume is important and needs to be recognized, it's just not what makes somebody a good fighter ! Canelo's fought much more highly skilled fighters than Usyk, and when you do that, the chances of you having a close disputed decision only increase. It needs to be more about what makes you so good and effective as a fighter. And another thing, P4P at its core is more than just a list. It's about making an assessment of a fighter's abilities and comparing those abilities to another fighter's abilities. Having a P4P list is great and all, but what really goes into how you decide on that list? Who you like more? Who has the better "resume"? Or Who are truly the better fighter #1-#10? It's subjective, it's what you value, which also relates to how you score fights and evaluate talent. But being able to discuss why you have somebody ahead of another is central to the point of having P4P lists in the first place. If we're going to post our P4P lists, there needs to be topics like this where we can look at two fighters and break down who is better. You don't determine who is a better fighter by looking at a resume. You determine that by watching the fighter, observing how he fights and remembering what he does better than another fighter. That's what P4P is about.

 

I'm trying to do something that you know nothing about : have an intelligent boxing debate about who fighters and compare areas where each fighter is better. You'd rather dumb this down into a spitting contest, I'm trying to bring it back to boxing ! Why don't you grow up and learn how to talk boxing rather then continue with your juvenile gibberish posting style !

 

No one's arguing against overall Floyd having a better career. If you count all of Roy's losses after getting KO'd by Tarver, obviously you're going to have Floyd ahead as he never lost. If you count Roy's career up until his fight with John Ruiz, and compare that to Floyd's career, then it's a much closer comparison.

You say you rate Floyd in his prime higher across the board than prime Roy. Well to do that you would be ignoring Roy's tremendous explosive punching power. Isn't KO ability and the kinds of punches that Roy showed he could land at will important to P4P? FMJ never had that kind of power. There's no doubt that FMJ was more fundamentally sound than Jones with tighter defense which allowed him to fighter later in his caeer and stay unbeaten and not get stopped. But getting stopped happened to RJJ after Jones was out of his prime. We're talking about who was better in their prime. So Floyd remaining undefeated and Roy's decline had nothing to do with that.

When looking at P4P we're comparing two versions of a fighter, while recognizing Floyd had tremendous defense and was a very effective and efficent fighter in his prime, he didn't have the overall speed and explosiveness of a RJJ, which makes me rate RJJ in his prime higher than FMJ in his prime. RJJ could knock you out with one punch that came out of nowhere that you never saw coming. Floyd wasn't ever as unpredictable or as fun to watch as RJJ. RJJ had you glued to your TV not knowing what was gonna happen next. When you weigh everything, Prime RJJ and FMJ is a very even and tough comparison as to who was better P4P. But it has nothing to do with their resume. It has to do with breaking down what made each fighter so effective.

To say Floyd was better P4P in his prime than RJJ in his prime, you'd have to ignore "punching power" and I don't think that's something you can do. Yes Floyd had better defense but RJJ didn't need defense as his speed, (power)punching range and explosiveness made him unhittable. Look at the performance of RJJ vs Vinny Pazienza. Vinny Paz was like a fish outof water in this fight. RJJ was on a whole nother lever and the KO of that fight, I mean nothing that Floyd Mayweather did was as good P4P as that. That's why I would have RJJ higher, not specifically because fo the Vinny Paz performance but just that explosiveness and basically being able to do that to anyone at any time, and to do it consistently without getting hit. That's P4P supremacy and though Floyd's defense has to be considered, RJJ was just on a whole nother level when it comes to how good he was as a fighter P4P.

I've watched enough of Usyk to know what kind of a fighter he is. Using Algieri Khan as an example who did better in the early rounds than Canelo. Khan fought a much more focused fight in the early rounds vs Canelo than he did vs Algieri because he was more motivated to fight Canelo and had more energy to implement an outboxing in-n-out style since he didn't have to cut weight. Algieri also fought better than usual vs Khan I thought, but that's neither here nor there.

Go watch some of Canelo's other fights and you'd know that he typically starts slow and gives early rounds away particularly when he's in seek-and-destroy mode. Vs Khan he gave away early rounds to get Khan's timing then started going to work and found the perfect shot that knocked him out. Even if Khan didn't get sparked out when he did chances are Canelo would have continued to wear down Khan the longer that fight went, and would have won most of the last 7-8 rounds even if Khan got some early rounds. Similarly to Usyk Bellew in a way. Usyk probably felt he would just be able to wear Bellew down after the early rounds even if he lost several rounds. Though comparing Usyk's KO to Bellew vs Canelo's KO of Khan, there's a difference in that Khan was still moving stillhad legs under him, Bellew did not and had completely gassed. Canelo's KO of Khan was more impressive than Usyk's KO of Bellew due to the fact that Canelo had to hit Khan who was a moving target, and was fleet footed. Usyk had a completely gassed Bellew who was lying on the ropes exhuasted for most of the round. All he had to do to get that KO was time him and throw a right hand after he dipped. There was more skill involved in Canelo's KO of Khan as he had to time a fleet footed outboxer who was still moving quickly.

Good for you, and good luck explaining that! That statement while bold is lacking the "how". I'm trying to determine how Usyk is better. Anyone can say "fighter A is better than fighter B at everything". I am challenging you to break that down and explain how he is better at everything.

 

Yes I needed to bring up RJJ FMJ to break through on the kind of comparison I am trying to make with Canelo and Usyk. See how we're comparing attributes and what makes RJJ better than FMJ. The punching power. There's a clear difference between Prime RJJ and Prime FMJ. That's what I'm looking for between Canelo and Usyk. Clear differences that makes one better than the other P4P.