How Joe Louis could have lost to Primo Carnera

mcvey · Jul 27, 2011

janitor said: ↑

I think you read too much into this.

You could probably get Chris Byrd 72KOs in 88 wins if you matched him agaisnt enough sub par opponents.
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Well ,you can't have it both ways either he fought and, routinely beat many men close to the top or ,he feasted on a lot of also rans.
Any comment about my rating of Lasky?

janitor · Jul 27, 2011

mcvey said: ↑

Not when he fought Carnera though and,I think you will find he was only rated in 1934.At the end of that year he lost to Hamas and ,drew with Levinsky, he lost all 3 of his fights in 35 to Retzlaff, Ford Smith[ ? ],and Braddock , and he was done as a contender.
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Lasky was on the way up when Carnera fought him, and there was interest in rematching them after Carnera lost the title. The Carnera Levinsky fight seems to have garnered a lot of interest.

"Primo Carnera, who made his first hundred thousand as an exhibit of oversized manhood, now desires more thousands because he is a fighter. Whether or not Carnera has learned to fight will be answered tonight when he faces King Levinsky at the Chicago Stadium."

Chicago Tribune

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...,3815534&dq=primo+carnera+king+levinsky&hl=en

janitor · Jul 27, 2011

mcvey said: ↑

Well ,you can't have it both ways either he fought and, routinely beat many men close to the top or ,he feasted on a lot of also rans.
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He obviously had a verry padded record, particularly during his European career. This does not alter the fact that he won some prety good scalps.

Any comment about my rating of Lasky?
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I think that Lasky hit his high point while Carnera was champion. He was clearly verry well regarded at his hiatus.

The people who knocked him off his perch were mostly former or future Carnera victims.
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mcvey · Jul 27, 2011

janitor said: ↑

He obviously had a verry padded record, particularly during his European career. This does not alter the fact that he won some prety good scalps.

I think that Lasky hit his high point while Carnera was champion. He was clearly verry well regarded at his hiatus.

The people who knocked him off his perch were mostly former or future Carnera victims.
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Lasky was knocked off his perch by losses to Retzlaff,Smith,Hamas and,Braddock ,none of whom fought Carnera.

Lasky's wins during Carnera's reign were over nobodies except for a very disputed win over Lee Ramage and ,a points dec over Levinsky.

I was referring to your claim that Lasky was rated for about 5 years, when in fact it was briefly for a part of one year.
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janitor · Jul 27, 2011

mcvey said: ↑

janitor said: ↑

Lasky was knocked off his perch by losses to Retzlaff,Smith,Hamas and,Braddock ,none of whom fought Carnera.

Carnera beat Levinsky and Smith, who were key components in Lasky's demise.

Braddock arguably avoided Carnera.

Lasky's wins during Carnera's reign were over nobodies except for a very disputed win over Lee Ramage and ,a points dec over Levinsky.

Except for the two key wins that you name.

Lasky was absolutely seen as being close to the absolute top of the list of contenders when he fought Braddock, and was heavily favoured. If you had asked any pundit at the time who the three best contenders were, they would have said:

Schmeling
Hamas
Lasky

I was referring to your claim that Lasky was rated for about 5 years, when in fact it was briefly for a part of one year.
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He would almost certainly have been rated in a few years.

I did not say that he was rated for 5 years.

I said that he was rated in the top 5 for a few years.
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mcvey · Jul 27, 2011

janitor said: ↑

mcvey said: ↑

janitor said: ↑

Lasky was knocked off his perch by losses to Retzlaff,Smith,Hamas and,Braddock ,none of whom fought Carnera.

Carnera beat Levinsky and Smith, who were key components in Lasky's demise.

Braddock arguably avoided Carnera.

Lasky's wins during Carnera's reign were over nobodies except for a very disputed win over Lee Ramage and ,a points dec over Levinsky.

Except for the two key wins that you name.

Lasky was absolutely seen as being close to the absolute top of the list of contenders when he fought Braddock, and was heavily favoured. If you had asked any pundit at the time who the three best contenders were, they would have said:

Schmeling
Hamas
Lasky

He would almost certainly have been rated in a few years.

I did not say that he was rated for 5 years.

I said that he was rated in the top 5 for a few years.
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How was Levinsky a key component in Lasky's demise ?
They fought twice, Lasky won the first,and drew with Kingfish, in the second.

When Lasky fought Braddock he had drawn with Levinsky in his previous bout and been beaten by Hamas in the one before that.
After losing to Braddock, Lasky would win 1 of his next 4 fights, being stopped in the other 3.

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Braddock avoided Carnera.

Lasky was not rated in the top 5 for a few years, he was rated for a part of one year only.
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janitor · Jul 28, 2011

mcvey said: ↑

How was Levinsky a key component in Lasky's demise ?
They fought twice, Lasky won the first,and drew with Kingfish, in the second.

When Lasky fought Braddock he had drawn with Levinsky in his previous bout and been beaten by Hamas in the one before that.
After losing to Braddock, Lasky would win 1 of his next 4 fights, being stopped in the other 3.

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I can asure you that Lasky was absolutely seen as a key player in the heavyweight division, by the contemporary press, as was Levinsky. His name cropped up in elimination tournaments and discussions about the heir to the throne.

Events took a few perculiar turns. Hamas thought that he would be matched with Baer for the title, on the strength of his win over the highly rated Lasky. Instead, the New York State athletic Comission told him to rematch Lasky to decide who would fight Baer. Hamas refused and took a second fight with Schmeling instead (has any boxer ever made a worse life choice?), and got beaten into retirment. Lasky was then matched with Braddock to decide who would face Baer. Braddock got his title fight, on the strength of beating Lasky in a significant upset.

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Braddock avoided Carnera.
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He refused to fight him verry openly. Make of it what you will. History might have been different had the fight come off!
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mcvey · Jul 28, 2011

janitor said: ↑

I can asure you that Lasky was absolutely seen as a key player in the heavyweight division, by the contemporary press, as was Levinsky. His name cropped up in elimination tournaments and discussions about the heir to the throne.

Events took a few perculiar turns. Hamas thought that he would be matched with Baer for the title, on the strength of his win over the highly rated Lasky. Instead, the New York State athletic Comission told him to rematch Lasky to decide who would fight Baer. Hamas refused and took a second fight with Schmeling instead (has any boxer ever made a worse life choice?), and got beaten into retirment. Lasky was then matched with Braddock to decide who would face Baer. Braddock got his title fight, on the strength of beating Lasky in a significant upset.

He refused to fight him verry openly. Make of it what you will. History might have been different had the fight come off!
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Lasky was rated in the top ten for part of ONE year. End of

Hamas was to be matched against Baer on the strength of his win over Schmeling NOT his win over Lasky

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Braddock started the ball rolling with stoppage wins over Corn Griffin and a dec over John Henry Lewis, the Lasky win alone would not have gotten him a title shot,prior to going in with Braddock, Lasky could only draw with Levinsky and, had been beaten by Hamas, his bubble had allready been burst.

The background to the whole thing is Hamas took a close win over over Lasky which was hotly disputed.The NY commission directed Jimmy Johnston the promoter at MSG to hold an elimination series, a round robin. This was to establish a leading contender for Baer's title.
The entrants were Lasky,Hamas,Schmeling,and Carnera.the winner would meet Baer in June for the crown.
Charlie Harvey, Hamas's manager stated Hamas had allready earned his title shot, because he had beaten Lasky ,and Schmeling.
Meanwhile Johnston put on a promotion featuring J H Lewis several top LHvys declined to meet Lewis and, Johnston offered the showcase fight to Joe Gould ,Braddock's manager Braddock a last minute replacement got $700,and his career took off again with the win.
Johnston offered Hamas a rematch with Lasky with a sweetener a % of the gate which was predicted to be a sellout.
A Dutch promoter offered Harvey, Hamas's manager $25,000 for Hamas to meet Schmeling in Germany.Harvey accepted it ,but, before confirming he went to the NY State Attorney General for an opinion as to the validity on the MSG's contracts.
The Attorney General declared the multi bout contracts were void and Harvey and Hamas were free to fight who they liked, so also was Carnera. Lasky had no problems with the Garden and was willing to fight whoever they chose. Champion Baer was tied in for one more bout with MSG[ Jimmy Johnston, ]then he would be a free agent too.

After Braddock beat Lewis, Johnston offered Joe Louis a fight with Braddock,Louis [Roxborough] declined because they were jockeying for Mike Jacobs to take over the Garden, and give them a long term contract.
At this time the Ring rated Carnera,Hamas and, Lasky as 1,2,and 3 respectively. with Baer as Champ..
The top sports writers of the US held an annual poll to find the top heavies, it was published in the NY Sun as follows.
Baer
Hamas
Schmeling
Lasky
Carnera
Braddock was 9
Louis 10
Lasky was Johnston's "boy" thats why he got the buildup.
After Baer kod Levinsky in 2 rds,Johnston went to his dressing room to congratulate him, but Baer had a long memory.
Baer turned on Johston in public ," you are the one ruining the fight game,". You go around knocking everybody,and everything,5 years ago ,when I wanted to comeback against Braddock,who turned thumbs down on the bout?"
"You said Braddock was washed up, now you want to match him with Lasky, is it because you have a piece of Lasky?"
Hamas and his connections quite justifiably turned down a rematch with Lasky ,a man they had allready beaten, ,so Johnston looked to rebuild Lasky elsewhere,Braddock was chosen as the foil. Hamas got a good hiding from Schmeling in an upset and, Lasky was beaten by Braddock.

Braddock was now the logical opponent for Schmeling, the winner to meet Baer but Schmeling was not tied into MSG.
Lasky was effectively finished as a top liner and by Sept 1935 was labouring for $4 a day.
His ring earnings,[ reputed to be in excess of $40,000 ,]embezzled by his brother.
Schmeling wanted too much money to fight Baer. Carnera's front, Louis Soresi , told Johnston he would not match Carnera against Braddock unless MSG gave him a $50,000 guarantee as an assurance that the winner would be matched with Baer for the title.Johnston told Soresi to **** up his kilt,and planned to match the Max's together.
Mike Jacobs now leapt in ,going straight for the jugular he matched Louis with Carnera.
With the contenders ebbing away from MSG,[ and Johnston]. The NY State commission held a closed doors interview with Braddock to determine his attitude towards a possible title shot with Baer, Jim, quietly confident, impressed them and the deal was allmost done.
Braddock was duly made the no 1 contender, but MSG preferred Schmeling as he was not only a bigger draw ,but was considered to have the better chance. The commission gave Johnston the nod to promote an elimination bout between Braddock and Schmeling the winner ,guaranteed a title shot .
Johnston thought he could get Schmeling to fight Baer without involving Braddock at all and more machinations began, but that's another story.
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