How long before Ali recedes to being a #2 or #3 heavyweight, except for boxing hipsters?

He gets PEDs in the 70s by the same magic that allows him to fight a man whose prime was 50 years before his own.

 

Good points, and I will address them in greater depth when I have time.

One quick note for now, though:

I'm neither nitpicking nor arguing just for the sake of argument. I'm just arguing a different point than the usual old vs modern stuff.

My claim is about the *future beliefs* of boxing fans. I'm not saying they'll be right. Instead, I'm saying that the same arguments that lower the ranking of 1910s thru 1950s fighters will do the same to Ali.

If you want to keep Ali at #1, maybe you only need to abandon those arguments against earlier fighters, and claim that future fans will do the same. Or maybe you'll instead claim that Ali and the 70s guys are special, unique exceptions to the rule for reasons that are so obvious that an idiot could see them. Or heck, maybe you'll claim that future boxing fans won't use the same approach to boxing analysis at all. Whatever the answer you give, it's an answer to a different question than "Could Ali still compete today?"

 

I didn't express doubt about the possibility that Ali could gain functional weight while maintaining speed and stamina. I expressed doubt that we would know how much of a difference it would make, and also pointed out that your own stance on modern training seems to be that it decreases stamina.

Well, that sounds like a silly argument. It will probably be a fringe position in the future, much like the people who believe that somebody like Chris Arreola would blast out Dempsey now.

Sometimes my posts *are* phrased like questions, because I want to explore your position better.

But I also have an argument of my own, which I outlined above: I believe that future fans will downgrade Ali, using the same types of arguments that are now used to dismiss the smaller heavies before Ali.

It's not about whether they'll be right to downgrade Ali. It's about whether they'll have the same grounds to do it that we do for 1910s-1950s guys.

As was already pointed out, Ali grew significantly after his pro debut.

Wlad wasn't chubby. He ranged from extremely fit to reasonably fit.

Lewis was sometimes chubby, but he was also lean for many of his fights, and was clearly a bigger man than Ali.

Bowe you're right about.

Wlad started earlier than his late 30s. I think Lewis did too.

They used that Steward style partly because of their stamina, but also because it worked really well, and they had the power to keep things under control.

Well, of the 3 top guys today, at least 2 have good cardio. Even Tyson Fury has (had?) stamina; he's just pudgy.

Right.

Right, but the same argument could be made for Ali's smaller predecessors against bigger fighters from the 70s thru 90s, which you don't seem to want to do.

I've often suspected the same thing. Makes one wonder why we use Foreman from the Frazier I fight as "prime" Foreman, though.

You're right. I should have said that you believed the size was the decisive difference. I didn't mean that it was literally the only thing somebody needs to beat them.

Are Ellis and Patterson really inferior contenders from your perspective to Mathis, Bugner, and Bobick? They were a little earlier than some of these guys, too; they were more typical of Ali's 1960s and early 70s opposition than his late 70s opposition.

In that case, we should be comparing them with the best 90s, 2000s, and 2010s guys.

And the Ali/Frazier fights are considered unusually high volume for their time. I thought the comparison with Vitali was pretty fair.

Wlad was a low-volume, negative, powerpunching octopus of a fighter, reminiscent of Jack Johnson in some ways. I wouldn't expect his fights to be action packed slugfests

True, but Kownacki wasn't great either.

I'm sure with more effort, I could find impressive Compubox stats from other superheavyweights. If Kownacki and Vitali could do it, so could others.

Bowe, probably.

I used the pre Zaire Foreman as a comparison point because he's the one who's usually brought out for prime vs prime matchups.

If you're correct, perhaps people over the last few decades have been wrong to use this Foreman as the prime version.

It can for Ike, since he was one of the two fighters.

Do 235 pounds of muscle have less stamina now than they did in the 90s? I thought part of the thrust of your argument was that big, muscular guys with modernized training have much less stamina than Ali.

Taking your points in order:

- an attack on Ali's era as a whole would harm his resume, just as attacks on contenders from Louis's era are used to keep him in a solid #2 position behind Ali. Similar attacks on Marciano, Dempsey, Johnson, et al have already booted most of them into the lower top 10.

- Skill, speed, etc. would be helpful, but remember that the caliber of opponent plays a role in how a fighter looks. Also, if 6'6" 250+ fighters remain standard, Ali would be in arguably the same position as a 190 pound fighter would be against Foreman or Tyson.

- I should look up Joshua's punch stats, compared to FOTC. The modern guys aren't the wheezing messes that they're often presented as, IMO.

 

https://www.*******.com/wilder-vs-fury-joshua-vs-povetkin-compubox-final-4-analysis--132065

If this is to be believed, Wilder and Joshua are throwing about 40 punches a round on average, which as I understand it is about average for heavyweights. Fury is a bit over 50 per round, which is above average.

 

For the record, we've actually seen a 220 pound Ali. I assume he's the version who just ate a little more and did less cardio. I don't think he was an improvement over 210 pound Ali -- but then, he wasn't weight trained like I assume you want him to be.

 

So how are you matching a 1960s fighter, who's dead now, with Wladimir Klitschko from 10 years ago?

 

It's my impression that modern fighters also blow up between fights. Ricky Hatton is a notorious example.

What is the evidence that they did this more or less back in the 1970s? Do you think there weren't gym rats back then? If not, why not?

 

Bowe threw 711 punches at 6'5", 235 pounds in the first Holyfield fight. He was 20 pounds heavier and 2-3 inches taller than prime Ali in that fight, his punches were harder than Ali's, and his volume would have fit right in with FOTC totals. And that's with an elite smallish heavyweight beating on him in a 12 round war, just like Ali faced. And it's in the 90s, before some of the training advances we have today.

Lewis was a negative fighter like Wlad, so his low punchstats aren't surprising. He did throw over 500 against Mercer when he was younger and less negative, which is respectable for a powerpuncher.