How long before Ali recedes to being a #2 or #3 heavyweight, except for boxing hipsters?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by cross_trainer, Oct 7, 2018.


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  1. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Based upon the Ring-ranked victims list, I could envision a reasonable person ranking Ali, Louis, Lewis, Klitschko, Holmes, or even Dempsey or Johnson as GOAT, depending on what they prioritized. (And Carnera, obviously.) I don't think most of those picks would be the best ones for GOAT, but you could make an argument for any of them.

    Dempsey and Johnson are more dubious than the others, when you consider the sport's segregation, their ability to hold onto the title without fighting if they wanted to, and the fact that their victims' ratings are retrospective. Still, you could make a case for either.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
    cross_trainer, Oct 8, 2018
    cross_trainer, Oct 8, 2018
    #76
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  2. Cojimar 1946

    Cojimar 1946 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    At least people haven't forgotten Gaius Caesar or Nero or Caligula
     
    Cojimar 1946, Oct 8, 2018
    Cojimar 1946, Oct 8, 2018
    #77
  3. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    All that being said, Louis has survived as the #1 or #2 pick long beyond the death of his own generation. That, combined with the anomalous number of ranked contenders he wrecked, suggests to me that he's probably the GOAT.

    Though Louis had a couple historical advantages that his successors lacked. He was bankrolled by millionaires in the middle of a Depression, and then was able to train pretty consistently through an equally disruptive world war.
     
    cross_trainer, Oct 8, 2018
    cross_trainer, Oct 8, 2018
    #78
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  4. Rock0052

    Rock0052 Loyal Member Full Member

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    He basically took out two eras of contenders before the best of the third generation caught up to him.
     
    Rock0052, Oct 8, 2018
    Rock0052, Oct 8, 2018
    #79
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  5. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    He almost got Joshua, too.
     
    cross_trainer, Oct 8, 2018
    cross_trainer, Oct 8, 2018
    #80
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  6. Rock0052

    Rock0052 Loyal Member Full Member

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    Good points! I think you're right- as far as number of ranked contenders and longevity, I think Louis is the one.

    Whatever people want to say about H2H and era strength, I'm of the mind that truly dominant champs make eras look worse than they really are. Staying on top when everyone is gunning for you is way harder than getting there in the first place...
     
    Rock0052, Oct 8, 2018
    Rock0052, Oct 8, 2018
    #81
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  7. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Now that I think about it, if Joshua becomes a solid, undisputed champion, Ancient Wlad's performance against him strengthens a future GOAT claim.
     
    cross_trainer, Oct 8, 2018
    cross_trainer, Oct 8, 2018
    #82
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  8. janitor

    janitor VIP Member

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    Another thing that has helped him, is that all of the people who might have emerged as a potential heir, have had serious problems with their candidacy.

    Tyson, Holyfield and Lewis, all lost their titles to the kind of fighters that Louis, Ali and Holmes did not lose to anywhere near their primes.

    Wlad has some very embarrassing early losses.

    If some of these guys had won one or two key fights, we might be seeing a different picture.
     
    janitor, Oct 8, 2018
    janitor, Oct 8, 2018
    #83
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  9. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    The prospect end of the division is about as deep as I've seen it right now. Things will be get very interestng in a few years.
     
    NoNeck, Oct 9, 2018
    NoNeck, Oct 9, 2018
    #84
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  10. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Brewster yeah. Although he was one of the best of the era aside from Klitschko and Byrd. I could see future Klitschko apologists dealing with that loss with some equanimity.

    Sanders? He was an avoided fringe contender in the SUPER 90S ERA. Do you know how dangerous somebody has to be, to get avoided by SUPER 90S FIGHTERS? Pretty flippin' dangerous.
     
    cross_trainer, Oct 9, 2018
    cross_trainer, Oct 9, 2018
    #85
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  11. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Ali just shades him in this area. I think something like 33 to 31 for Louis. They are head and shoulders above the rest, though.

    Ali's numbers will probably always stand up, as will Louis's. Then there will be probably be an increasing number of people who think that neither would be much of match for today's giants.
     
    Bokaj, Oct 9, 2018
    Bokaj, Oct 9, 2018
    #86
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  12. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Do you have link to the list?

    All I have is the one that was compiled of guys who were EVER ranked in the Ring top 10, and Louis has about 10 more than Ali in that category
     
    cross_trainer, Oct 9, 2018
    cross_trainer, Oct 9, 2018
    #87
  13. janitor

    janitor VIP Member

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    I think that Ali edges Louis in "currently ranked", but Louis edges Ali in "ranked at some point".

    As Bojak says, both are head and shoulders above anybody else.
     
    janitor, Oct 9, 2018
    janitor, Oct 9, 2018
    #88
  14. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    Lewis had really good opportunites to become the best ever. Had he defeated Tyson, Bowe, and Holyfield in the early-mid nineties or retired undefeated or done both or beaten Vitali in the rematch followed by Wlad, he'd likely be number one. More easily said than done though.

    Although nobody in the current heavyweight class stands out to me as one of the best ever, the opportunity is definitely there. The current top guys (Fury, Wilder, and Joshua) are gonna be trailed by a long list of talented fighters over the next decade, such as Usyk, Dychko, Ajagba, Yoka, Joyce and a bunch of Eastern Euros. If one boxer comes out as the dominant number one guy of the era, he could be in discussion for best ever.
     
    NoNeck, Oct 9, 2018
    NoNeck, Oct 9, 2018
    #89
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  15. HerolGee

    HerolGee Loyal Member banned Full Member

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    surely theyve all started way to late, being seven years behind ali and louis is an overwhelming obstacle in itself.
     
    HerolGee, Oct 9, 2018
    HerolGee, Oct 9, 2018
    #90
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