How Long Does Wilder Last, As An 80 's Belt Holder?

Good grief.

Look, the thread is about Wilder in the 80s.

You're the one who emphasized the 80s being a terrible era in one of your first posts in this thread, *because of drug and motivation issues*. This was your post:

Since you brought it up as a point in Wilder's favor that the 80s sucked because of drugs and similar issues (weight/motivation), and the thread is about Wilder AS AN 80S BELTHOLDER, I'm a little surprised that you're taking such great offense at me asking whether Wilder would succumb to the same pitfalls and temptations that other 80s beltholders did.

It's no different than asking how Wilder would have dealt with the Mafia controlled division of the 1950s, or the Color Line, or the Depression's negative effect on fighters' ability to train, or whatever.

I'm not trying to nefariously attack Wilder, or boost the frankly uninteresting 80s guys into world beaters. I'm asking how putting Wilder into that environment might affect him.

(I'm also apparently the only person speculating about it, so it's not like I'm a cog in a vast conspiracy to destroy Wilder's legacy by posting on a fantasy time travel thread in a moderately-visited subforum.)

 

You’re attempting to win an argument based upon stats.

 

The factor that most made the 80s guys inconsistent was that they were fighting nearer the top of the division. And they were not good enough to win more than a fight or two there.

we still don’t know how many fights wilder could have won near the top of the division in his era.

 

I had a great time in the 80s apart from crapping my diapers on a regular basis and getting chicken pox.

 

Tony Tucker, Tony Tubbs, all those amateurs on the Muhammad Ali Boxing Club were heavy drug users even before they turned pro because they were give drugs by Harold Smith/Ross Fields, the bank embezzler. It was in the book written by the prosecutor in the Smith embezzlement case. The money, drugs, clothes, cars, parties he gave all those guys to sign on with the club and to keep Smith on as manager when they turned pro. Tubbs' career was still being guided by Smith behind bars. I have an article on it somewhere.

For a while there, when he first came around, I actually thought Al Haymon was an elderly Harold Smith. He kind of swooped in as a mystery man with an endless supply of cash, like Smith did way back when.

 

Me too. I was 14 years old watching Holyfield vs Dokes and literally jumping up and down. But the times in general were just fun

 

Well….. at least you had someone wiping your ass for ya !!!

 

Guys like Whitaker and Corrales had big careers with the same issues out of ring. Tapia did better than them while being completely over the top. I think there’s a lot more to it than the party in the 80s, and some of that is just that they were good but not special.

Tyson was better than them and got away with not taking care of himself (in the 80s at least).

 

Definitely a better time to be an American and a young one at that

 

Yep.

 

GCC - Let me get this straight. You quote my post but your comments weren't in any way addressed to anything in my post? Why did you quote my particular post when your comments had nothing to do with me and it was an open question? why would you not just ask the question without quoting anyone?

Again i have to mention that Fury's enormous weight i talked about that you've mentioned twice was in relation to his 375 pounds while in limbo.

What posters are you referring to per Fury being immensely fat and overweight in the first fight? Tho still shaking off the rust he was less than 10 pounds over what he used to fight at.

Who knows what the actual breakdown was? Perhaps it was a combination of both. Perhaps it was one or the other. At the end of the day it matters not as he got up and belted Wilder every round thereafter.

Firstly i never said Fury was out of shape because Wilder surprised him in the first few rounds but others have apparently? It's certainly not pertinent to the debate we are having.

I suggest you watch the fight again. Wilder did not "surprise Fury for a few rounds". When Wilder came out active and spearing the body Fury made the decision to sit back and have a look at what he was bringing. By the end of the round he was starting to look for opportunities and actually landed a flush right hand just before the bell.

Right from the start of the second round Fury started to get forward a lot more than he had and Wilder started to give a lot more ground. The Wilder jab and body attack were quickly turning into footnotes as Fury got in close multiple times and started the wear him down process. Fury won this round so he was hardly "surprised" at this point.

A few means three and i have no idea how you could think Wilder was still surprising Fury in round 3. They fought competitively for a bit before Fury flattened him and won the round 10-8.

You are trying to say Fury was just as good as he was for the second fight yet pulling out of thin air a wild guess that Wilder "wasn't feeling himself in the 2nd fight" and trying to pass it of as "The logical conclusion". It might be logical to you but i'm pretty sure a lot of guys aren't going to buy that. Perhaps it really was the suit or floppy gloves?

Whatever the reason Fury caught a bit more leather than in the second bout. Perhaps Wilders extra weight and strength left him with a little bit more when the wearing down process was well under way. Who knows.

The last part is a little bit weird you say but at last we are aligning.

"He simply isn't a great boxer and finisher" - BOOM!! Exactly what i was alluding!!! This is exactly why it is absurd to think he reigns year after year after year in the 80's while carefully avoiding Holmes which lines everything up per the thread topic. Your comparisons are on the level - good fighters who just weren't good enough to beat top shelf fighters. Wilder i think is better than that pair but they are certainly superior to many of his challengers.

For the record i never "disputed" anything you banged on about e.g. "Wilder definitely took his chances. He went out on his shield and tried to take fury out with every fiber of his being. I don't even see how that can be disputed."

 

The problem with Holmes wasn't even primarily his age, it was his atrocious condition and extended period of inactivity: he was a fat rusty mess who had barely trained. Mercer was a Chisora-tier plodder and would frequently go life and death with journeymen. I'm not claiming that Holmes was "shot" when he fought Spinks but he was not at his best and had been getting controversial decisions in recent fights. It was seen as a massive black mark at the time that Holmes became the first reigning HW champion to lose to a LHW, even though most believe Holmes was robbed in the rematch.

Douglas was able to beat McCall, Berbick and Page? So were 42 other guys. Douglas had 4 losses (3 by KO) 3 controversial decisions and a draw in 33 fights before he fought Tyson and all but the KO loss against Tucker were against less than stellar opposition. Douglas was regarded at the time as a journeyman or at best a fringe contender; he was the biggest successful underdog in boxing history. He's not comparable to Bowe with 1 official loss and none by KO, who beat Holyfield twice (many would argue three times) Douglas was blown out and quit in 3 rounds to Holyfield in his fight after Tyson. If prime Tyson was what his supporters make him out to be, Douglas shouldn't have been able to beat the cr*p out of him for virtually the entire fight and KO him even on Tyson's worst day.

I can critique Tyson's opponents while defending Wilder because Tyson (like the vast majority of past champions and their opponents) is overrated while Wilder and his opponents are underrated. This isn't to say that Tyson wasn't a very good fighter but he was very limited anthropometrically, very young and inexperienced on his run to the championship. This strongly suggests to me that he and his opponents (who were also generally shorter and lighter than modern fighters, often with drug/alcohol problems) were overrated.