How Long Does Wilder Last, As An 80 's Belt Holder?

All 4 stoppage losses Thomas suffered were well after he slid downhill and was no longer a factor in the division. You do understand that right?

Get your nose out of Boxrec and develop some sense of context before trying to make an argument, okay?

 

You haven't answered any of my questions.

The fact the stoppages happened when he was no longer prime isn't particularly relevant. His chin wasn't tested all that much before he fought Tyson and hoylfield. We don't have much else to go off in terms of durability.

Let me know when Thomas "easily" outboxed a taller opponent busting him with his jab, okay?

 

Thomas was only stopped after it is commonly accepted he was on the downslide, mostly due to a hard life. Tyson landed any amount of huge punches on him before Thomas finally succumbed. Next fight he fought Holyfield who thoroughly outclassed the faded Thomas and belted him for round after round without dropping him before Dundee stopped the bout between rounds. Both of these guys are far superior fighters than Wilder.

It was over three years later by the time Bowe stopped a washed up Thomas who ideally should not have been fighting. Yet again he was pounded for many rounds and again the fight was stopped between rounds.

Stupidly he was put in with Morrison next fight despite losing 4 of his previous 5. He suffered a bad cut in the first round and was thoroughly outclassed in the first round (while never going down) before retiring on his stool.

Thomas even when shot wasn't prone to going down and particularly not from a single shot. The guy had to be hammered. In his prime he took significant shots from punchers of the caliber of Coetzee and Weaver (and Witherspoon for that matter) without trouble.

 

You guys aren't getting it.

Nowhere was I suggesting wilder easily takes Thomas out with 1 punch.

I didn't even say wilder would beat Thomas. In fact I think the fight would be close if both are healthy and prime.

I'm aware of the events you're describing and have seen several Thomas fights.

My main issue was with the absurd claims Thomas would not have to worry about Wilder's power. Wilder stopped Areola with a broken hand, something a healthy Vitali couldn't do after landing over a hundred flush bombs all night. He disposed of an undefeated Ortiz with a single shot. He rematched stiverne and blasted him out in 1 round after going the distance previously. He dropped Fury brutally 4x in separate fights despite being 40 lbs lighter and being the far inferior boxer. Say whatever you want about wilder and write all the excuses you want about Thomas being in drugs and past his prime, the facts of the matter are if wilder lands flush consistently Thomas is going to get hurt badly and quite possibly stopped. It's comedy to suggest Thomas would never be in danger of being stopped. People are acting like he's leagues ahead of wilder when he didn't do much to truly separate himself from his peers in his own era.

Which leads to my second issue which was the bogus claim he'd just comfortably sit at a distance and outjab a man 4 inches taller with a 6 inch reach advantage who contrary to popular belief, has a good jab himself. We're not talking about Thomas vs Carnerna or Buddy Baer, wilder is very athletic and doesn't just spam right hands as soon as the bell rings. I'm guessing this is the visual some of these posters have in mind? Ironic that they're telling me to stop looking up boxrec when I've asked numerous times when wilder just got helplessly outboxed by a shorter man at the end of a jab. If people actually watched Wilder's fights they wouldn't suggest such a thing.

This is the even funnier claim. I don't recall Thomas ever outjabbing someone with a significant height and reach advantage. I asked 3x for people to show me evidence of Thomas doing this. Hell I'll even accept if the opponent is 6'5, let alone 6'7. And he would have to be outjabbing him "easily" according to people in this thread. It doesn't matter if Ali or Usyk did so because they're completely different boxers who do no fight remotely similar to Thomas and are frankly far superior to him in nearly every category to begin with.

 

Actually, the timing of the stoppages is extremely relevant. They always are. You should already know that.

As to the rest of it, you don't like that example? Fine. Take Walker-Sharkey, or Holyfield-Douglas, or on a smaller scale Whitaker-Vasquez as examples of smaller (but better) fighters that blew up the idea that size is the driving factor in boxing. These aren't the only ones of course.

You seem to be obsessing over this one example while losing sight of the over-arching argument, which is that Wikder's comparative size advantages hold little sway if the other man is the better fighter.

Which will almost always be the case in fantasy matchups involving that scrub.

 

Or perhaps your not.

No-one has actually said that.

And no-one has i believe said other.

Well some guys believe he wouldn't be. I'm not sure i'd consider it comedy. I don't think anyone is envisioning Wilder landing right hand after right hand all night and having no affect so much as they are thinking he is overrated and lacks the skill to put enough together against a guy like Thomas. There's every chance Thomas has the sort of chin that can withstand the odd clean right hand particularly going by the Tyson fight when he was fading.

That's a good point but on the flipside can you provide a night where prime Thomas was outjabbed by said taller opponent?

Wilder was getting comfortably outboxed for 6 rounds by Ortiz and i notice a lot in here don't overly rate him and would consider prime Thomas better if not notably better. Ortiz is only an inch taller than Thomas with 1" extra reach so there's that.

 

I didn't know Thomas went by the aliases Hoylfield or Whitaker.

5th time asking now.

When did Thomas "easily" outjab a man with a significant height and reach advantage?

Nowhere did I say that size was the sole driving force in matchups. I didn't even claim Thomas couldn't outjab wilder. You made a bold claim and I'm simply asking for evidence. What evidence is there that he could "easily" outjab a larger opponent who himself has a decent jab? Like I said, I'll even lower the bar to 6'6 or 6'5. It's quite the stretch of the imagination if nothing remotely similar happened in Thomas' career.

It doesn't matter whatsoever what usyk, or Ali, or Whitaker, or what any other fighter in the entire history of boxing did to a larger opponent. It doesn't apply to Thomas because he is not them.

 

Faster than Cleveland? Never! Haha.

 

He doesnt seem that developed as a fighter. How long he would last against the likes of Coetzee, Weaver, Tillis, Tate, etc., maybe a couple years

 

Ask a million times, son, you're missing the point. The point is that I'm insinuating Wilder doesn't have the skillset to offset Thomas' skillset (or 'Spoon's, or Holmes, etc) and thus would fall to them according to script. The script for Thomas involved his jab in most fights. The fact that you apparently need to see evidence of Thomas jabbing a man taller than him is silly and completely useless information that has nothing to do with anything. It's about skills.

But the kind of rabbit holes you're going down are kind of revealing as to where you're coming from, so I'll let you labor in the delusion that boxing matches can all be decided by a tape measure.

 

I asked a simple question and multiple people avoided it and shifted the goal posts so I doubt it.

Uh, yes they did. If you claim that a boxer can just comfortably pop their jab out all night easily winning every round you're indirectly claiming they don't have to worry about the other guys power.

They also kept playing up Thomas' durability by ignoring all stoppage losses as being post prime. Its a very similar tactic to what Tyson fanboys do. There isn't a lot of data on either guy taking significant damage in their primes so we have to look elsewhere.

I'm simply setting the record for anyone who is under the delusion wilder can't stop him when far lesser punches did in fact stop Thomas.

Well the thing is wilder doesn't necessarily need to land a barrage of right hands all night. Anything can happen in heavyweight boxing especially with a guy like Wilder who can turn the lights out with one hit. He lives and dies by the knockout and has several one punch KOs over men larger than Thomas who had decent durability themselves. Such a scenario is far from unlikely because Thomas is not some defensive wizard and he has a disadvantage in reach, speed, and athleticism. And Wilder absolutely has the skill and delivery system to out the shots together needed for a KO.

I'm not the one claiming wilder would definitely outjab Thomas. The burden of proof is on them. The flip side to this is that, again, wilder wasn't kept at Bay by a smaller opponent outjabbing him to my knowledge.

It's quite the extraordinary claim that Thomas pulls a Hearns and just flicks his jab out all night outboxing a taller rangier man who also has a decent jab.

Ortiz is a southpaw with a different style from Thomas. And Wilder's strategy was actually pretty smart:

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The fact that you won't answer the question and you actually believe I think reach is the "only" factor is simply you using a straw man because you have no answer and that tells me everything I need to know. You are both ignoring questions and putting words in my mouth so as far as I'm concerned you're a joke who has no objectivity and incapable of a very simple debate.

 

Perhaps they thought it not relevant.

That's your interpretation and i'm not sure i agree.

The Thomas stoppage losses were after his best and i provided context for each of them. As i said Thomas shipped big punches from Weaver, Coetzee and Witherspoon so we do indeed have some data without having to target him past his best. As i explained even past his best he was still taking beatings and not actually going down.

The "far lesser" punchers were better fighters and pounded on him, past peak, for multiple rounds. non did significant damage with single punches.

Yes Wilder has big power. Personally i don't think he's stopping Thomas with one punch but it's not impossible even if improbable. Wilder hasn't stopped much of anything when we are talking top Ring rated contenders. That's not to say he couldn't but we certainly haven't seen much of it.

The burden of proof is on everyone and the burden of proof certainly isn't the be all and end all.

Ortis was winning rounds without having to do anything overly amazing. I'm not sure if Wilders strategy was so much a smart one or a limited one. Even given his enormous height and reach advantage he had to sit back and wait Ortiz out. It certainly showed you didn't have to be a behemoth to outbox him.

The X factor is Thomas stops him. Ortiz had him in a decent amount of trouble in their first encounter and perhaps it was why he was so cautious in the rematch.

 

Who is "both"?

 

Alfonso Ratlif and Gerrie Coetzee, both more advanced technically than Wilder, had significant height and reach over Thomas. It’s really not that much of an issue in those days. It’s not like now where a 30 year old basketball player turns to boxing. In the 1980s Heavyweights started boxing as kids. They could all box enough to cope with height differences. The tallest fighters in those days lost to shorter men all the time. Carl Williams was tall. Tony Tucker was tall. Leroy Jones was tall. Tiger Williams was tall. Joe Bugner was tall. Gerry Cooney was tall.

so what? I am more impressed that Tyrell Biggs beat Jeff Sims with a broken collar bone than I am in Wilder beating Areola with one hand. Any top fighter would have. It is not a claim to fame.

Stiverne was 39 years old and had not fought in 2 years that time. And he was never that good when he was younger and more active.