How long would Jeffries have held onto the title, if he wanted to continue

Dubblechin--thanks for replying. In all fairness, still photos can be very misleading. Yes, Jeff doesn't look that much bigger when the photograph is taken at a low angle and Jeff is standing several feet behind the two boxers. Burns seems close in size.

But a film is a much better record of the size because the angles are constantly changing. Jeffries breaks Burns and Squires and walks between them on the film. If I were computer sophisticated I would bring it over. Perhaps some young fellow up on modern technology can and will. The colorized film is especially good and clear. Jeff was in fact much taller and bigger. The Johnson film makes Burns' size obvious also.

Just on Burns' size, 5' 7" inches makes him shorter than Gene Fullmer, who was shortish for a middle. That 74:" reach is one inch shorter than Marvin Hagler's reach. Nothing out of the ordinary for a middle.

I want to say I have no ax to grind here. Off record, I consider Johnson the best heavy prior to Louis. Off record, Jeff is #2. Burns did a worthy job of establishing himself as the champ after Jeff, but his size is what it is, and off what we know of his height and how he appears on film, on the eye test he looks at most a super-middle if in good shape.

"I'm sure Burns would've done fine with Jeffries."

A different issue. Perhaps. But he would still be a very small man doing well against a big one. Some fighters have overcome such a size gap, but a lot depends on how good you consider Jeffries to have been at his best and how good he was likely to have been if he hung around to fight Burns.

 

I think the Jeffries that we know would have been entrely too much for Burns.An older Jeffries with
added poundage and perhaps desultory training habits might come unstuck.Jeffries was never in love with the game or the hullabaloo that went with being a champion,had he continued somebody would have got to him.

 

In all fairness, Jeffries was six feet tall. Not 6'9".

Six feet tall.

I know some guys view him as a "giant" but he wasn't. The height disparity in the recent Canelo-Kovalev fight was the same.

 

I can't say about the drinking. It is going to hurt Jackson regardless, like smoking, but the issue would be could he give it up to train.

About consumption, though. Did he have the symptoms? High fever? Severe weight loss? Chronic coughing? Coughing up blood?

Adam Pollock doesn't mention any of these symptoms. His weight was apparently a normal 195 and observers thought him in good shape and looking decent in training. Now being in "good shape" is not the same as being in boxing shape. Jeff in 1910 is a good example of that. I certainly wouldn't dispute that Jackson was basically a memory as a boxer. But a man dying of TB? That is going off the rails without direct evidence. There is nothing inconsistent with Jackson being in good health in 1898 and contracting TB and dying three years later.

What is the evidence of a punctured lung? Did a physician testify to this? What did they do to fix what generally would prove fatal?

As for Burns, he seems plump and heavier than normal against Moir. He looks to have been trained to a lighter weight for O'Brien, Squires, and Johnson. All off what the films show.

As I posted above, I have no ax to grind against Johnson. I consider him the best heavy prior to Louis. But Burns' size is what it is and how big does he exactly look to you on the films?

 

The Jeffries of 1902 probably was too much. The Jeffries of 1907 was no finely tuned fighting machine.

Five years is a long time.

Ali in 1972 against Jerry Quarry certainly didn't look like the Ali who fought in 1977 against Evangelista and Shavers.

You also would have to wonder if Jeffries would even bother to get in the type of shape he did get in for Johnson. He worried about losing Johnson. Probably wouldn't have been as concerned by Burns.

That's when those "greats" tend to lose ... to guys they overlook who are better than they think they are.

Jim Jeffries and Tommy Burns in 1907. I think the guy on the right beats the referee. Hands down.

https://boxrec.com/media/images//thumb/d/d6/Burns.Squires.1907.JPG/850px-Burns.Squires.1907.JPG

 

What point are you making? Jeffries was measured at 6' and he weighed in good shape generally in the 215 to 220 range. That is a lot taller and heavier than a man who was 5' 7" and apparently about 168.

People at the time considered Jeff and Johnson (the Galveston Giant) "giants" but I certainly don't. Why can't we just stick to the point about how big Burns really was.

By the way, Burns giving up height and weight and still accomplishing what he did speaks well of him as a fighter. Pointing out that Mickey Walker was a lot smaller than Jack Sharkey is not a knock on Walker. It is simply dealing with facts.

I actually agree with you and McVey that Burns might have been able to upset Jeff if the two fought in 1907 or 1908. It is at least conceivable, although the size difference would have been immense, and I think a Burns win would still have been unlikely, because of the size gap. What a loss to Burns would have done to Jeff's rep is well worth considering.

 

I didnt say he was dying of TB ,though he did 3 years later.Jackson was a body for Jeffries to knock over.Sharkey who had no love for black fighters ,said he would have been ashamed to do it.
Slavin broke one of Jackson's ribs which is supposed to have punctured his lung,old as I am I wasn't present so I can.t testify to it.There are articles on Jackson one I have in my favourites which is titled the Tragedy That Is Peter Jackson,it was written whilst he was living inLondon.Unfortunately I am not on my pc which is broken I am using my partners lap top PC shops around me are closed due to the lockdown.when/if
this situation improves I will post what I have,

 

You used the term consumption which generally is taken to mean pulmonary tuberculosis.

A punctured lung is a very severe injury. It is difficult to buy that a man with a punctured lung could go forward in a boxing match. A cracked rib is something else and much more likely.

Into booze and dissipation, certainly. Just a name from the past? Yes. But it boils down to being a lot like Jeff against Johnson. Jeff was into eating rather than booze, but had gotten far out of shape. Jeff could train into looking like his old self, but wasn't. Jackson seems to have been about the same off what Adam Pollack describes.

But all this begs the issue of how folks way back then looked at these men at the time of their comebacks, which is the most relevant question. Jeff was actually favored over Johnson. Jackson was only a 10 to 7 underdog. Jackson was still viewed as one of the top, and probably the top, black heavyweights in the world, even if observers should have known better. But then again hindsight is always 20/20.

And I guess it is all relative. How much less impressive is Jeff beating Jackson than Johnson beating Jeff, or for that matter, Corbett beating Sullivan, who was not only dissipated, but visibly out of shape and overweight. And it took Johnson 15 rounds and Corbett 21 rounds. At least Jeff accomplished his "feat" with dispatch.

On what is obvious in retrospect not being obvious at the time, Ali was only a 6 1/2 to 5 1/2 underdog to Holmes on the day of their fight. Ali looked in good shape to the eye and looked good in sparring.

 

I've never claimed Johnson beating Jeffries was impressive. Jackson was finished just a name, he wasnt a top black fighter which your original post claimed ,neither were Armstrong and Griffin when Jeffries beat them.

 

I made the analogy to Johnson and Jeffries. To what extent is it wrong?

"Jackson was finished"

Who has disagreed. Whether it was obvious to observers at the time is a different issue. The odds show many thought Jeff could beat Johnson or Ali could beat Holmes.

Jackson might not have been in reality a top black fighter in 1898, but he was the most famous and probably the most highly regarded black heavyweight, and still the British Empire champion, I believe.

I think Armstrong and Griffin were obviously among the better black heavyweights of the 1890's and early 1900's.

But, frankly, I would much rather discuss Burns.

 

In1898 Frank Childs would have been the best black fighter.
Jackson had not fought for 5 years.He never defended his Empire title.
Then do so Mr Allnut.

The idiot hater is still apparently replying to my posts,my apologies for putting this here but I avoid and ignore the moron.
"Jeffries was examined by Dr. D.A. Sargent of Harvard University in December of 1903 and was recorded to be precisely six feet tall.I know that like me you already knew this, but the idiot obviously did not.

 

Jeffires was reliably measured at 6'1" 1/2, including full tale of the tapes for fights, not just from reports of yesteryear. He also is even on height with Babe Ruth who was 6'1" tall. You can find listings with Jeffries being 6'2" tall. The problem with Box Rec is, if an editor puts something into the database, it becomes their version of " fact "

Burns was too short and light and didn't have any defense or enough power to make up for it. Maybe he would be viewed as Jeffries 4th-7th best opponent.

Johnson called Burns the easiest man he ever fought. With Burns confrontational style, he gets smoked inside of five rounds vs. Jeffries.

Burns is giving up roughly 45 pounds in weight, 6" in height and 2 1/2" in reach, but in reality, the striking distance is far more than that. Very short fighters have to reach up there to land headshots, and as you arch your upwards, your range becomes less. To quote Burns, he could not reach Johnson as he was too tall.

There is no one beating Jeffries in 1905 or 1906. By 1908, Johnson improved as did Langford and Jeannete and were in their peak years until say 1912. So they would have a shot around 1909-1909 I still don't see anyone beating Jeffries until 1909-1910, when he was old.

Jeffries almost returned to fight Billy Laing in 1909, I think.

 

Jackson had a good training camp. His people said he had regained form. In round one there was a of action from Jackson. A man who had not lost a fight in 10+ years. The fight changed when Jeffries landed his hook. Jackson went down a few times, as he could not take the power. It had nothing to do with age, his loss of speed or lack of conditioning in round two. It had everything to due with him taking a punch from a hitter on Jeffries level.

Legendary referee and author George Siler called Jackson the best of the black heavies, over Johnson by long odds.

Griffin was a decent fighter. He has a win and two draws with Johnson. Jeffries beat Armstrong with a broken thumb. It is possible Jeffries also KO'd Martin. It has been reported as such.